Episode #33: Jenny Glenn

Jenny Glenn, Head Volleyball Coach at Metropolitan State University of Denver,  has taken one of the most successful volleyball programs in Division II history to unprecedented heights during her eight years as the Roadrunners' head coach.

Heading into the 2024 season, she has compiled an overall record of 191-47 (.803 winning percentage), including a staggering mark of 125-9 in regular-season RMAC play for a .933 winning percentage. Over the past four seasons, MSU Denver is 98-15 overall (.867) and 60-2 in the RMAC (.968), following a three-season (2020 through 2022) run in which the Roadrunners were 73-8 overall (.901) and 47-1 in the RMAC (.979). Glenn's overall winning percentage and conference winning percentage are the best in the program's history. MSU Denver has spent nine weeks ranked No. 1 in Division II (four weeks in 2022, five weeks in 2021) by the American Volleyball Coaches' Association, was No. 3 in the final poll in both 2021 and 2022, and finished at No. 4 in 2020. The Roadrunners, No. 7 in the final 2023 poll, have been ranked in the top 10 in 39 consecutive polls, as was as 51 of the last 53, heading into the 2024 season.

We had a great conversation about everything from how she would change club volleyball to the amazing work she does to develop leaders and significant learners in her program.  Enjoy!

Learn more about Jenny Glenn here:  https://roadrunnersathletics.com/sports/womens-volleyball/roster/coaches/jenny-glenn/1299

Transcript

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Welcome back to the significant coaching podcast. I'm coach Matt Rogers. This week's guest is one of the best and most authentic volleyball coaches in all of NCAA division two coach Jenny Glenn joined me this week. She's the head volleyball coach at Metro state in Denver, Colorado. As we recorded our conversation. Coach Glenn has led the road runners to a 12 and one start. And ranked number two in the country with the ultimate goal of winning it all this year. With one of the tallest and most dominant front rows in the country, they've got a very realistic chance of bringing home the big trophy. Coach has been named our mat coach of the year for the last eight years, including back-to-back honors the past two years. She's all spin name, the H V C a south central region, coach of the year, twice. And in 2021, she was named the mile high sports college coach of the year, as well as the Colorado sports women. College coach of the year. With an overall career record of 191 wins and only 47 losses. You get the picture that she knows what she's doing. And I love that she does it her way. I encourage you to crack open a notebook for this conversation. As coach Glenn speaks eloquently about her six pillars. The wind group. Advice for athletes and how to talk to coaches about playing time. She also shared some great books that she's reading with her players this season on leadership. Ownership and Habitudes yes. You heard me, right? Habitudes I can't wait to dive into all of them. Without further ado. Here's my conversation with coach Jay. Coach Glenn, so thankful to have you on. What a great career you've had. I'm always interested in why people coach, and especially you've been doing this for a long time. Like me, where does your joy and motivation come from to keep doing it? Yeah, to keep doing it. That's the trick, right? Yeah. I got started. My dad was my high school coach. And so I've been coaching around coaching since I was little. I can remember as a elementary kid running up to the high school just to get in the gym to, to be in practice and figure out how to do a left foot work and hang out with the older kids. I've been coaching is in my blood in that respect. My sister also coaches club. Yeah. Volleyball. Now we have other coaches in our family. I think from a young age, I was around coaching and got to be a part of it. And then, you become the athlete and you get to play and then you're done playing. You're like, wow, where's volleyball in my life. And I miss it. I woke up that first Saturday and it wasn't game day for me and I was missing it. So I didn't necessarily always know I was going to get into coaching. I think. Volleyball, like I said, I missed it. So I'd help out. I coached some high school or a little bit of club, and then the opportunity came fell in my lap to, to go to Northern Colorado to assist Lindsay Oates and started my college coaching career just because I'm not necessarily thinking that's what I was going to do is always a back burner idea. And then I got in and then it's, in your blood and you just can't imagine life without it. But, over the years, I think the thing that keeps me joyful and passionate has probably changed. I think at the early parts of my career, it was game day and beating the person across the net from me and that thrill. And it was a lot about winning and figuring out how to win is I get further in my career. The joy comes from watching my athletes grow. You see them as a college coach, as freshmen that come in, leaving their families for the first time and figuring out who they are and you get to walk alongside them on that journey. Oh, that's great to wait to and see who they become. And so that growth process and walking with them has been the joy for me lately. I, there was a coach I heard the other day said, my success comes now from how many wedding invites my wife and I get from our former players, that's a successful year. Our kids have gone on, they go do well, they go get jobs. They start their lives. I love that. That's great. I want to talk about club. I'm a club dad. I got a 15 year old and I wanted to get your thoughts on where you see club. Cause I was a college basketball coach. So AAU was always that thing that I wanted to pull my hair out. But I was also the coach that was in the gym all summer long watching kids play, because it was the only time I could watch a lot of kids play at one time. And I couldn't do it during the season. I surely couldn't travel a whole lot. Where are you at with where the club vibe is right now? And is there anything that you would do to make some changes if you could? Yeah, I think club has just changed tremendously over, starting my 18th year coaching, which is crazy to think, over those 18 years, it's completely different. And It's it's a mixed bag as far as what my thoughts are on it. I think it's really great when used properly. But I think just like anything. It becomes more of a moneymaker. People need to make a living, when 20 years ago, people, that was their side gig, because they loved coaching. Now it's maybe their full time job. So with that becomes, the season gets longer, there's more tournaments to be played. I think one of the things I would love to see change in the club circuit is the length of the season that athletes would have some time after their high school is done that maybe club doesn't start actually try out everything till January, and then maybe find a way to finish it in May, or at least June, so that athletes can have a little bit of separation you know by the time they get to us. There's a lot of burnout happening and the joy for the sport decreases. And so I think it's great in the sense that athletes are becoming more skilled. They're getting a lot of high level competition. They're understanding what it means to travel far and play and grind it out in a weekend tournament. But at the same time, at what cost, and I find I recruit a lot of three sport athletes. I have on my team, I would say my team is very diverse in the sense of where we're coming from. Some are coming from high school, graduating class of eight people and never played club, but they're great athletes and they come and we like to train great athletes up. And then others are coming from big clubs, maybe a Colorado juniors or a Houston skyline and. We have a good mixture, which allows us to be successful because, we have some really highly experienced and others that are a little bit raw. I think you can get it done in a lot of different ways, but I think just the biggest thing for me is just the length of a club season. Yeah, I agree. It seems so logical. Let's give the kids those two months. Let's give them through the holidays, do everything the first couple of weeks of January, start your practices, do three, four months of tournament play, have nationals. And that's a good, that's a good season. I don't know why it has to be twice the length of the high school season. That's beyond me. So I love that piece of advice. I would take that in a heartbeat. I love what you said about multi sport athletes, that you're recruiting kids that you can develop. I want to throw this out there. I'm constantly talking about the portal. I'm constantly talking about, and I talk about the portal a lot because I'm a big believer in The more a kid gets to be with a coach and gets to be in a community, gets to be in a culture, I've always found those kids grow dramatically more. Who they are, as you talked about, who they are as an eight year old, it's night and day who they are as a 22 year old. What are, what is your philosophy on how you want to develop that culture in your program in terms of building that family, building that sisterhood? Where does it start for you? Culture is something that we take a lot of pride in our program. And as I mentioned to you before I joke with recruits all the time. Like we were doing culture before it's the cool thing to do, and. And we have six pillars in our program. They're like our core values. I think one of the things our athletes know exactly who we are. And sometimes they might not know who they are yet as they grow in their college years, but they know what MSU Denver volleyball player is and what an MSU Denver volleyball player values. So with our six pillars, they're like I said, our core values, every decision we make from coaches to athletes to athletic trainers, you. Falls within those pillars. And we know if it's not going to fall on those pillars, we're not going to do it. And it's really simple. It's really black and white. And our athletes develop a lot of pride in who we are because of that. And we stand on those pillars, and within that, we spend a ton of time on unity. That's a big part of it. A big deal for us. We feel like if we're not working hard at growing our culture and growing our unity, it never stays stagnant, right? Like it's either growing or declining. So we put a lot of effort into that piece and we're super intentional with that within that, like we do a lot in our program to build up that culture. I think one of the unique things we do is we call them win groups. It's what's important now. So we have like small. Sub committees, you might call them in our team. And they're focused on what's the most important thing for us to move from good to great, it might not be that we're really bad in this area. We just need to move, forward, make sure it's moving forward. So things like unity or our practice culture and our athletes are in charge of that and they get to make decisions. And if as long as they, fall within our pillars, then we let them make those decisions, whether that's a cell phone policy and how, when, and where they're using them. I don't make those rules. They make those rules. Or unity. We do like small groups. How do we get to know each other at a deeper level? So that we are growing as a family, you can't just call a family, right? Like you have to go through the tough times together. You have to understand where they're all coming from because we are. There's a lot of diversity in that respect of what parts of the country we're coming from. We have two internationals on our team. What experiences are they bringing to the table that we, don't understand them unless we understand that, which allows us to perform better on the court next to each other. And that's just one small little piece that I'm giving you of our culture. We're doing stuff like that all the time. And so we talk to recruits, like if this is a, I can do the things I'm telling you about, the books we read and how we, Press into this, then you're going to love it at MSU Denver. If that, if you, if like figuring out how to become the best version of yourself and growing as a group is not really what you're here for, then. It's not a good fit and that's okay too. So it definitely bleeds into the recruiting piece as well. I find it so hard when I'm working with high school kids. It's, I don't find it hard, but I find that it's hard for them to understand that your priorities have to come first. You have to understand who you are before you start your recruiting process, before you pick a program. Because if you go to a program and then you find out after you're there, that this really isn't me, their priorities, aren't my priorities. You're already butting heads from day one, so I love that you're already talking about that to your recruits. When you talk about unity and your six pillars, I'm sure it begins in the preseason. How do you incorporate that throughout the season when you're playing two or three games in a year? In a week, you're traveling, the kids got classes, you got weight training. How do you incorporate that unity? Two questions. Maybe unity versus pillars. We're starting the pillar talk as recruits. Then we do onboarding with our incoming kids. So they're learning what it is that we do and how we do it well, before they step on campus for that first preseason practice. And I think just that communication builds the unity within the team. This is who we are. We have pride in it. All of that. As the season goes on it's just interesting how many situations take us back to our pillars, whether that's integrity, communication, growth, mindset, perfect effort. Love and respect the game growing together. So every piece of the pillar is unity. And I think like right now, I just told you, we took a bonus day. We took a day off with our team and that's a unifying piece in itself. Cause just like family, we might need some space from each other every once in a while. And that's the best thing we can do, but I can guarantee you a lot of our team is getting together to do something fun together today, even though it's a day off. And road trips provide bonding. They provide unity or changing who they're staying with on every road trip. Yeah. I think, showing up for each other. This athlete has a class that this athletes, other athletes taken that professor before and they can help them understand how to be successful in that class, so it definitely bleeds into everything that we do. Yeah. And it's just a daily process of are we going to come together? And recommit to who we are every single day that we walk in the gym and we have different things that we do to check in that connects back to our pillars because it, it does need to be front of mind. If you're not talking about it, daily, weekly, if it's not hung up in our locker room or in our offices, so they're seeing them all the time, then it doesn't become as important. I love it. We keep it to forefront. That's great. Are you comfortable sharing your six pillars with us? I've got a lot of high school coaches that listen and I think it'd be great for them to understand where the pillars came from and what they meant. I was just talking to my athletes the other day. I was like, when I decided I wanted to be a head coach, I said, okay, what are the things that matter? And I created these six, which some might say six is too many, but that's where it started. And it's been really fun over the years just to watch how accurate those six have been no matter what the situation and I rolled through them quickly already, but integrity is our first and our cornerstone like we have to build our program on trust and being who we say we are, otherwise everything else crumbles. Another is communication. That's a really big deal, especially as college athletes. Can you communicate well with your teammates, your coaches, your professors? Another is growth mindset, which is pretty self explanatory. Are we willing to walk in the gym every day, especially when we recruit athletes that Might not come from a lot of training or have had a lot of training in a specific way, both sides of it. Are you willing to come in and do, try it the way the coaches are asking you to train a perfect effort. We can't have perfect performance or execution, but we can have perfect effort. So do we walk in the day in the gym every day, willing to go for every ball that's, within the walls, as we say, and get perfect efforts. Growing together is just this idea that everybody is bringing their strengths to the table and we're building a pile of all of our strengths, whether that's a cross court shot that we didn't have before or a line tool or, a different set that we added to it. And we're just over the course of the year, we're growing all of our abilities and strengths to draw from. So that could be on the court that could be off the court. Our center and left side had a coffee conversation and cleared the air on some stuff, and now they connect better because they can communicate better on the court. Something as simple as that. And then the last one is love and respect the game. So if we're not loving it, if we're not respecting our opponent and the game, then we're doing something wrong. I think I gave you all six there. Yeah, you did. Those are great. It's wonderful for me. It's I consult. So I'll go to a university and I'll work with the coaches. I'll work with the athletic director. I'll work with the commissioner. And these are the type of things I'll take with me because oftentimes we talk about a mission statement. We talk about core values and oftentimes they're just words, right? And then we don't reincorporate them and bring them back. Every day. And we don't make them the focal point. So I like how you've chosen the phraseology that you have, because it all comes back to the same thing. They're all six points that come back to the same thing. If we don't care about each other, if we don't respect each other, if we don't care about the game and the respect of the game and want to get better we're going to run into problems, so those are really good pillars, fantastic. I teach high school coaches when I'm teaching somebody how to build a practice plan. I go, tell me about the five things that you feel like your team needs to win a game every day. What are those five things, no matter what, that you need to be successful, no matter who you're playing. And I think your pillars have that same mentality from a volleyball. Perspective and a training perspective. What are your pillars for teaching the game that you're hitting home every day? want, like I've got a 15 you want her working on i at that next level as far serving pass, w Every time I have a camp, It doesn't matter if you're playing rec volleyball or you're playing on the national team, serving pass is what wins games. Yeah. So we try to be a really aggressive serving team. We serve often multiple times during a practice to, we break it down every single day. From a foundational, like fundamental standpoint. So serving is a big deal, obviously serve receive everything gets better, right? Like your offense gets better. If you're in system, your defense gets better because you're going to put more pressure on your opponent. So serve receive and passing is a really big deal. Out of system is also a key point especially in these last couple of years that we've really. Increased. So a lot of the game is played out of system, but we don't always train it out of system, right? We train it perfect pass in the box. What's what are we doing? So servant pass and out of system, I would say are three really big things. As you get to the college level, the blocking game becomes more important. We spend time on blocking because we do think it is a strength of ours. So you always want to practice your strengths. People think, you got to practice your weaknesses and we do, we work on our weaknesses, but just. Maybe more important is continuing to train your strengths because of the areas you have the ability to be next level at. And then, we take specifically a lot of pride in our offense. We think we have really good attackers that can cause a lot of problems for our opponents. I think those are the main areas that we put a lot of time and effort into to be able to be successful. Yeah. I love that. And my wife is a volleyball fanatic. She's, I'll be sitting there watching a movie on my iPad and she's watching Nebraska Louisville. Yeah, she just loves the game. And we talk about a lot about just what we see because we're both novices. I was a college basketball coach and she played in high school. But the blocking is the big part that we're finding. Is amazing when your team is built to block, built to defend everything else behind you is easier. Yeah. Are you finding that's one of the keys to all the success you've had over these years and how you teach it is because you don't keep winning 24, 25 games every year coach the way you have and without some things that you're, you feel like you're doing better than everybody else. Is that one of those components? I think we've gotten, we've been fortunate enough to get some size. I think a lot of people think division two is just undersized athletes. We do have some of those, but we also, we have a six, four right side, we have a six, three middle, we have a six one left side. We have some size and honestly to win at the top of D two, we're playing very much at a mid major level. And we're competing at that. And so we need the size to win just like division ones need size to win. I think our size has really been helpful. I've had two assistants that kind of have been in charge of blocking and they've done a really good job. We also do some things that I think help give us an advantage from a scouting standpoint to prepare us to block well, but I think in general, one of the things. I told you we, we take some three sport athletes that maybe haven't played a ton of club. So we commit to training, we break skills down, we build skills back up. We're not just throwing the ball out every day. We're trying to get our kids, our athletes to understand the game and get a high IQ, but also. Really breaking down skills so that we can pick our opponent apart. That's the goal. And so I think just this commitment to training in general, which goes into our growth mindset pillar, which is why recruits don't want to get better and don't care about that. They just want to play versus, we love bringing in learners to our program that want to learn and want to grow. That's. That's where I think we've had the success because we can get athletes that have a big upside in high ceiling because we'll train them. And then it might take a year or two, but then, I, Kaylee Corsentino came to us from Walsenburg, Colorado, graduating class of eight, and it took until her junior, senior year, but she ended up being on all American right side for us by the time she was. Graduating. And so that's an athlete that had really limited club experience, but just went in and wanted to get better and was really focused, committed to growth mindset, committed to effort. And then you see that kind of result. So that's been our bread and butter, I think as a whole. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a common theme between coaches that really have great programs and have built great legacies. It is that commitment to teaching. It's the commitment to saying we're going to be really good at this and we're going to practice it every day and we're going to care about getting better at it. So I love that mentality. My brain always goes back to recruiting. I wish it didn't, but it always goes back to it. And I think it's just being a college coach. As long as I was, you can't help it. If you're not thinking about recruiting most of the day, then you're not thinking about your future. You have to, you talked about, you'll bring in a kid that hasn't played club. I talked to a lot of volleyball coaches that have a fear of bringing in a kid that hasn't played club because they're worried. They haven't seen a certain level of competition. You don't seem to have that fear. Where does that come from? I think, I was that kid. So I think there's an element to that. You recruit yourself. And I was a three sport athlete at middle Park high school up at Grammy, Colorado and. Didn't play club. And I think you learn, I, I call a recruit and they tell me they run track. And if they tell me they run for hundreds, I'm like, you're in, let's go. Because I know I will one. Cause I did. So I know what it feels like, right? I know that you're willing to just get on a line and just me versus you. Let's go. And I'll go till I have nothing in the tank. And if you're willing to run that race twice, I like you, you're willing to go back into it. So I think it's just, it's. It's not that it's, it scares me or doesn't scare me. It's all about getting to know that athlete. And, I can have a three sport athlete that I don't think can, it can handle it because. For other things in our conversation or the, different things that I'm picking up on, an athlete that's wanting to grind and that's a competitor pretty quick when you're talking to them. And so if I get that out of a three sport athlete, that hasn't played a lot of club, then I know that's something that we can work with. And it is hard sometimes for those athletes. We have one now, like that's come in and. You have to be willing to be patient and you have to be willing to grind because you're, you're the big fish in the small pond where you are now, but you're about to be that small fish. And so can you handle that? And can you stay in the process when it's hard to get to the other side to become that all American, we believe you can, but do you believe that? That's sometimes the harder part for them is just sticking it out. Those first couple of years when it is hard. It's so rewarding as a coach, when you've had a kid that has stuck it out, that you saw their potential at 16, 17, you convinced them. I see something in you. It may not happen right away. It may take some time, but if you believe in us and you stick with it, we're going to get you there, right? Is that as rewarding for you as it was for me? Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you have to have the right team around them as well, right? Like the team that, They do feel like they can be part of the family before they're producing on the court or That they have their teammates that are like, hey, I was there i've been in your shoes I know it's hard to keep going, And then you get the grittiness out of them and then it really blossoms. Yeah, I'm going to transition to your coach brain and how you pick your rosters and how you pick your rotations. What goes through your head? Obviously, you're like, you got to be like every coach. I've got to get my best six on the floor as much as I can get them together, right? I've got to build my rotation to our best players on the floor. But you also have 6, 8, 10 girls on the bench that you recruited and had big dreams of coming in and playing. How do you balance that? Between we've got to win each set, we've got to put ourselves in a position to compete, but I've also got to get some of these kids on the floor. So they learn how to compete. So they, so we can give them opportunity to prove their worth. How does that work for you? I'm always intrigued by that. Yeah. It's really ironic. You're asking me this question right now. I think in the past we have really stuck with our starting lineup and, it depends on each roster. Sometimes there's a big gap between the bench and the court and other times, like my team this year, there's not much of a gap there. And so I'm always a believer that I want to give my starters. I don't want anyone to be thinking, we're going to make one air and I'm out that's not how we roll. And I think it's just, It's it really coaching is an art, right? So you have to know your athletes and you have to know what's going on there. A lot of times it's just role definition conversations. I have them in my office. What do you think your role is? Okay. This is what I think your role is are we on the same page or not? And if we're really far off on where we see each other's role, as that role, then we need to have a really good conversation about that and define it clearly. I think when you define people's roles and you give them a map of For how to get to the court. I'm really honest as a coach. I'm really direct. So I will say this is exactly why, that you're blocking is what's keeping you from the court. You're on par with that starter and every other area, but that so I need you to, be touching this or a lot, your lineup needs to get better or whatever. I think the more specific you can be, the more they feel like, okay, this is what I'm working toward. And so I think, some years. You just go with your starters. Cause that's what you need. You have to find a rhythm to what you're doing. And then other, you there's matches and there's two types of experience, right? One is okay. We're winning 20 to 12 or 20 to eight. And I'm going to go let you play for a couple of points. And there's no, this is a tight match in, or a preseason tournament and it's 2020. And this kid's struggling I need you to go in. Cause I need to see what, how you're going to respond in that situation before it's like really counts, it's still counts. We're still playing matches, but I'm going to show that kind of trust in you. So there's that different types of playing time. I do think this year we've cycled a lot more when our exhibitions and our scrimmages. I did not stick with my starting lineup the whole time. We really gave the young kids an opportunity in a game like setting. But the reality at the end of the day is we're a college volleyball program trying to win matches. So we're going to put ourselves in the best opportunity to win. While, utilizing opportunities when they come up to, to develop the roster for sure. What's your advice to any athlete? That's not getting the playing time. They thought they were going to get, how do you, what, how do you want them to approach you about that playing time? Or is, or would you rather they didn't, where are you, where do you stand with that? I've always told my athletes like any coaches talk about an open door policy, but I'm like, I'm a reasonable person. I'm not that scary. As a head coach, they're a little afraid sometimes. And I think how, as a coach, you respond to that question really determines if that athlete feels comfortable coming back. I think one of the biggest things for me is timing, understand the timing, right? Our team just won. You're not coming to me on the bus. Like I want to play. Be a great team player first, right? And, it's not game day that you're walking into my office. It's saying, why am I not playing right? You pick the appropriate time to come and talk and then let's have an open conversation. It doesn't need to be emotional. It doesn't need to be hard. Like I said before, I'm pretty honest and I'll tell them exactly where they are. Some can handle that straightforward approach better than others, but I also think it's really important to not give false hope, to give a very. direct Hey, you want to court this, and this, are the things that need to change. Or the reality is, it's just, you have two all Americans ahead of you on the floor right now. I need you to learn really well from them so that when your time comes, you can be the next all American. And just the more they buy into the team mission, I think the less of those conversations you have. Yeah. But it should be like you want your athletes wanting to play, right? Like you don't want them to be okay with being the bench player. You want them pushing because then they're pushing your starters. So if you shut down those conversations, they don't know exactly what they need to improve on. And you're not moving forward as a group. I always found that 99 percent of those conversations, it's sitting down and watching film or showing stats and the answers are right there. They're pretty obvious. It's the other couple of percent. And I've had a couple of times that come right to my head where a kid's walked in and said, coach, I'm not sure. wrong or why I'm not play I'd sit down and watch fi something that I pulled t for a reason. I wasn't pl read it or it wasn't thei to go, you know what? I m of the things that you we You know, I've got to be better at paying attention and to what, I'm good. I'm fallible too. I'm not going to see everything as clear as I want to, and I adjusted and got that kid a little bit more playing time and they proved me, prove themselves right. Do you find that stats and film take care of that conversation most of the time? Or do you find that you have to reflect as a coach and go, yeah, you are doing some good things. We got to, we might have to find more time on the floor for you. Yeah. I think it's. It's a little bit of everything, right? There's times just this last weekend where I hold a kid. Cause I, my perspective was different than what was really happening. And sometimes it's because of previous experiences. We think that's what's happening. And so I do think we have to own it when we're like, yeah, okay, my bad. Like I, I didn't read that situation well, but I do think I, volleyball is a little different than basketball in the sense we just have limited subs and we're specifically in a six to often really limits my ability to change things. Because when I use that to change a personnel that's not out that's outside of our regular rotation I'm going to run out of subs if it's a close. So I really have to know what I'm what move I'm making in that situation. But I've also found over my years at coaching and sometimes stats are, it's really straightforward. But other times, you know, it's a gut feeling or an instinct as a coach. From a leadership really plays into a lot of coaching decisions. We've had matches where a certain individual wasn't playing very well, one of our leaders, maybe they're hitting negative. But our team won that set and, like maybe I make that change and that person's hitting 300, but we lose. And so there's just, I don't know if it's a similar in basketball or not, but there's just so much, yes. A volleyball where it's like. You may not be performing, but your presence in your leadership is making our team win. And so that's when I think stats fall short and that happens more than you might think. How we affect each other on the court. I love that. Yeah, just last season. I can remember I was coaching last year. I coach high school last season and I can remember having that conversation. We kept stats and we had a kid that wasn't scoring, wasn't getting a lot of on the stat line. But their plus minus on the floor was better than anybody else. We were winning when they were on the floor, even though they weren't producing stats. So how they move the ball, how they worked in space, things like that. So I love hearing that from a volleyball perspective that you see. And I think that's good for parents to hear, like it's easy from everyone in the stands to be like, why'd you make that? Does it, like question coaches, but the reality is, they haven't seen what goes on throughout the course of the week. They don't know what obstacles got you to that match. That's right. And they don't have a pulse on those kinds of stats, the ones that are not blind. And so I think, I know it can be emotional as parents are like, you won't understand why your kid's not playing, but then, that's goes back to play for coaches that you trust and then let them do their job because they have so much more information. And so I think that's something just to keep in mind for parents as they watch matches. Yeah. There's a reason usually. There's a great movie called Miracle about the 81 hockey team. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's one of, it's one of my favorite movies and I'm not a hockey fan at all, but it's the idea that Herb Brooks was putting these group of kids together that were so different and when they got on that ice, it was like they were born to be together. And that in every sport. That with volleyball and I'm sure it's, you can give me a thousand different examples. But I'm sure there's girls that just when she's on the floor with me, I'm more confident when she's on the floor doing her thing. I know my part is going to be better because she's out there with me. Do you get that sense with your group? Do you find yourself pairing kids together? Yeah. I think it's just, something as simple as flipping the rotation can change things, like we want to be a little more resilient than that, but who's who in different rotations. And it is really. An art to figure out your best lineup and where everyone thrives. Cause it really does matter who's next to each other, especially for girls. I think that matters even more. And especially our sport, we're coming to a huddle where we're very cheery and high fivey and like interactive, and I think that really does matter. Like trust piece on the court is what it really comes down to. Yeah. Yeah. It really does. And when kids, when you find that kids trust each other it's so rewarding to get them out there together and give them those opportunities to grow as a group. So that's fun to hear. I'm going to be, I'm going to be a dad for this question. So you bear with me here. This is a really novice volleyball question. The middle of the floor. It doesn't matter what level I'm watching middle school, high school, small college, big college Olympics. The middle of the floor, the ball seems to drop so often and points are scored. It seems the easiest play on the world. What is your philosophy on defending the middle of the floor? I can't wait to hear your answer. What are you hitting all my good spots right now? How did you even know? We call that the donut. So for sake of conversation, we'll call it the donut from now on. The reason that's a bit open is most teams, not all teams usually most teams are only a perimeter defense. Back on the perimeter of the court, defending the perimeter and then moving in. If you're running a rotation or a man up defense or something that shot is not as available to you, right? So yes, it is the dead center of the court, which we always talk about when we're training okay, whose ball is this? That's right back. So whose ball is this? And I stand in the middle of the court night, who's balls this? And they know the response is everyone's it really is. And I think that's what creates it. It creates a problem because the left front attacker, let's say it's from the left side. They don't want to go that far because they want to be a hitter still, and right back, if that's your setter, they don't want to go that far because they want to set the ball. And then your middle back player, if it's deep in the doughnut, right? There's different parts to the doughnut and they all should take their portion, but the dead center ball, like it's a long ways for your left back and it's anyone's ball. So it's this moment of hesitation and volleyball. And it really is, every defense you play, there's a weakness to that rotation, right? That's the perfect shot to score in that defense, but you're not playing defense to dig a hundred percent of balls, right? That'd be great. Yeah. But you're designing the best defense to dig the most amount of balls you can dig. We're going to make you be really good and hit dead center of that to be the hardest ball on us. We do divvy it up based on where the donut, like which part everybody should go for. But it just is like one of those things in volleyball, where it's there's hesitation there. And we train a lot in that space because it is really difficult to defend. So you can alter your defense. To pick that ball up. But you're going to give up something different. So it depends on your opponent. If your opponent, that's the hard to hit the perfect shot right there, then they better not be really good at the shot that you're giving up by going into the donut. So yeah, it is just one of those things. And it seems like the more dynamic your libero is, the more that space becomes their, they own that space. Am I wrong with that? If they can read really well and then just take space, they usually pick that ball up. Yeah. Yeah. It's gotta be it's gotta be six or half a dozen in the other when you're playing at your level, because you're going against these six, three, six, four world class hitters that can go down the line. They can hit those back corners. And it's nothing for them, so there has to be some give and take where your blockers are behind the blockers, seemingly is the hardest place to hit the ball. So it's everywhere else you have to defend. Am I wrong? No, that's right. And we, most teams will scheme their defense. If that's a shot that the opponent's going to hit a lot, we'll change different portions of our defense, even throughout a match. If that wall is scoring. When you don't change your defense and then it just keeps scoring like then you're making maybe a decision where you should have just committed a little bit more, but it's not always that easy. Like you would have met with one person and then if your opponent picks up that they're hitting a different shot now that you've committed there, so you got to stay one step ahead of the offense. That's cool. All right. I'm going to go backwards. Cool. Tell me again. I love talking about this stuff because it's, it gets me excited to get back on the floor every day. It gets me excited to develop kids. What goes into your thought process and who you play? Cause I'm sure right now. You know who your talent is and you know who needs to be on the floor. But let's go back to February and March. You're bringing in some recruits. You've got kids signed. You've got a transfer to coming in. You've got your returners coming in. What goes into deciding this is the kid I got to have the right side, left side, middle. What goes into that thought process for you? Yeah your returners best, right? And you know your recruits. probably the least, even though you watch them, you just don't know. The unknown there is how they'll adjust to the college game. Usually speed gets them. The college game is a lot faster than high school or even like playing open level of club. If they've played at the open level in the club game, we know they'll probably be a little bit quicker to transition to the college game because it is a little bit faster. But speed usually gets them. Like we're always. training our returners to be the starters, right? The hope is that we are training them well, so that a freshman isn't ready to play over a junior or senior, right? If they are, then we play that freshman over the junior or senior. But we haven't probably maybe done a great job of getting them ready to take over for the, exiting seniors. I think there's a lot that goes into it. We're interacting with our team No other personalities. We know what that looks like. It naturally usually follows from there, but the things we're looking for is obviously like consistency is a big deal and they can, they be good over time, not just, what are you going to get from this person today? Obviously the ability to score, to block, to pass, to do all those things. And then the presence and leadership piece. We have, one, one of the positions on our team right now, we have three people that could play that position technically and tact and technically and tactically probably, but from a leadership presence, one is just. Significantly higher than the other two. Who's playing is the person who has a presence and leadership on the court. And so sometimes it comes down to that. Sometimes it just comes down to, resiliency and upper classmen who's been playing in a six rotation left side role and knows how to handle the low. blows out of system walls and has experience handling the load is probably going to handle that a lot better than a freshman who doesn't have that kind of experience. We have other freshmen that we have a freshman starting middle. We graduated our fifth and sixth year middles last year. We were both starters. So now we have a freshman sophomore in those positions positions, and they're doing a great job because they have to, right? Like they have to go. There's no one pushing them from behind. And stepping into that space and getting really early experience as they're young. So I don't, that's a hard question to answer because I think it is. Know our kids really well, sometimes too well. And we might need somebody from an outside saying have you thought of this? I'm using some mentors that have a little bit more fresh eyes on it. But yeah, it tends to work itself out. They share, we talk about unit, like our left side units. We've been cycling between a couple of kids out there and they're both doing a really good job, so it might be a matchup that we need. That's how we're deciding who's going to play that, night. When you have that kind of luxury where you can choose starters based on matchup, not on who's hitting 100 versus 300 that's a pretty good place to be, so yeah, every team is just a little bit different, but obviously being a great teammate. Being a good person. All those things factor into it as well. That's great. That's great to hear. How do you use your staff in trying to, in getting their thoughts, their opinions to help you make decisions? I'm fortunate to have two full-time assistants, so the three of us are there all the time. We did V UP training, like I'm training our setters and our pins. Caden's training are blocking in our middles and Amy trains are serving, passing, defense, floor defense, so they have a lot of like understanding of their positions, but we do discuss everything as a staff and so we can take all factors into account and we all three see things very differently, which is really good because we're getting three different perspectives takes a lot of communication because we do see things differently. But I think utilizing my staff in that space and getting their perspective on it is. helps make decisions or, it's that clutch time and match. And it's okay, which one should we go with? And they, based on the training they've done they might have some input on that too. That's great. Do you find that they're able to push you away from where you thought you were rock solid? Do they have the ability to change your perspective on things or when you're locked in, are you pretty hard to move off of that? I would say I'm pretty open to receiving their opinions, but there are times where I'm like, no, this is the direction we're going. And you have to do that. You have to go with your gut and your instinct as a head coach. And if not, you start to question yourself. And I've been there too, and when you start to question yourself, you don't make clear decisions and that's not useful for your team or your staff. So I think, there's areas where I'm like, I could be suaded, like I'm not dead set on this, and other times where I'm like, Nope, this is where we're going. Get on board. You're the head coach. You're the CEO at the end of the day, the, it all ends with you. So that's, I love that. Talk a little bit about leadership development. You talked about how important it is in your program. How much in your program is leadership, nurture versus nature. I know you're recruiting kids that are great leaders. And that's important to you, but how much of it are you developing when they get there? And how are you going about it? We are pretty strategic in our leadership development. I do think some athletes have a natural tendency, but I also believe everybody can grow in leadership. And everyone needs to, because guess what? You're the leader of you're going to be. You have to lead yourself when you graduate from here. I need you to be able to lead yourself in your life and at bare minimum. And then maybe you are leading a team or a business or whatever. And we want to give you those tools. So we have a leadership process. It starts with a Habitudes book and it's all about the art of self leadership. Then we go through. Everybody in our program at some point will go through that book with me specifically, which I think helps them get to know me better and them learn about how to lead themself. And then the second book we go through is extreme ownership. What the first book coach? It's Habitudes. It's Tim Elmore. Yeah. Habitude. Habitudes. Yeah. I love that images that are leadership principles. So that first book is the art of leading yourself. So you got to lead yourself first, right? You can't lead others. The second book we go through is extreme ownership. And that's a military book, but it's all about Okay, before I can leave my team, I have to learn how to own it, right? Just like you said, I'm the CEO. At the end of the day, it's on me. We lose. It's on me no matter what. And can I handle that? Or does that destroy me? But if you're a leader that doesn't can't own it then no one's going to follow you either. So first we got to lead ourselves. Then we got to learn how to own it. And then the third, we go through the team captain's manual. If you're like end up on leadership in our team, which is just the nuts and bolts of how to lead well. So our athletes are, we're doing that. We're doing some other things that help build their leadership. And then, we utilize some tools to decide who our leadership crew will be. And then they're meeting with me weekly. We've also done some leadership lab stuff, teaching the younger. So it's very much, we're always trying to groom the next group of leaders. And then, because I rely on my leaders a lot, the best team is our leader led teams. If I'm not having to hold the standard and hold them accountable, but they're doing it, we're going to get a lot further. Yeah, we've had really great leaders come through, one of our. One of the biggest things are this is where I probably the most proud when our leaders this year are saying like what's your biggest fear, the year, my biggest fear is that we won't pass the torch well that the next group of leaders won't be prepared to carry the legacy and. I was like that's a good place because that means you're going to be super intentional on that legacy piece with our program. And you're not afraid of losing. You're not afraid of those things. It's making sure that we continue to grow our young ones when it comes to leadership. Coach, we're going to have some follow up conversations. If you're open to this, I love this. I love it. Love it. Love it. One of my biggest concerns about athletics in general, And this goes back to me. I was a head college coach at 26. I was an athletic director at 27 at a college, at a university. And there was nothing, there was nobody saying, this is how we do things. This is how we lead. This is how we're organized. This is how we prepare. This is how we schedule. This is how we train. I had to create everything from scratch and it drives me crazy. When I see high school coaches get hired, youth coaches, club coaches, college coaches get hired, and no one is giving them a manual and coaching the coaches. So when I hear what you're doing, it's a master's class on how to run a program. Because if you're not thinking about your kids from a cradle to grave mentality, and I'm not talking freshmen through senior, if you're not thinking about them before they get on your campus and what their life's going to be 10 years after they leave Metro, after they leave MSU, You're failing them in so many different ways through that process. So I love that. What's going on for you? Obviously you've, you coach with some great coaches before you got to MSU, you had a great career as an assistant. At what point did you feel like somebody gave you this, or did you have to create? This leadership model that you have at MSU. Do you feel like you were, you stole it and borrowed it like I did? Or did you find that at the end of the day, I have these instincts that I'm going to follow though, because this is what I think is best for my kids. Yeah, it just develops a little. I think it's all about being intentional, right? With everything you do. And I think that when you're talking about coaches starting out, like it's a lot of work, it's exhausting work to be intentional and to think ahead and to put things in place now that are going Serve you well in a year, or two years or three years. And then just stay diligent to stay on that, even when it's hard, even when your athletes, in COVID are like, why are we doing this? It's COVID we should be doing nothing. And you're like, no, because this is going to serve you well. And I don't, it doesn't matter if you don't like it, you're going to do it. And then they come back and thank you for it later, so I think that intentionality is a big deal. And, as I, I've talked to different people, like the wind group thing, I told you, I got from a pastor at my church that they do it there. And I'm like, we're going to trans, do this, take the same concept over here. So sometimes it's that, and sometimes it's just this is what makes sense to me. And things fall into place. You read a book and you're like, Oh, this goes here, you. You think about what's missing and then that turns into, the culture has built over my nine years. I think those six pillars were like things that I sat down and was like, these are what I think are important. And then it's just, they come to life, and then you start inserting things as they go. That's the art of coaching and what makes sense in some years with teams, like we We turn the spotlight a little bit more on this half and then other years we need this. And so I think it's just being aware and then being intentional and watching things come together too. It truly is an art, someone, I don't mind sharing everything I do because it's you can take everything I do and you're going to, if you try to do what I do, it's not going to work for you. But if you think the idea of Okay, what matters to me? What am I passionate about as a coach? I'm going to take those concepts. I'm going to be intentional. I'm going to build on it. Then it's going to be really good for you. It's not a cookie cutter thing. It's just taking the concepts, I think the growing together piece I got from John Dunning at Stanford. He said something about this idea of We put everything together and then we're stronger and look at all these things we have to access and I'm like, okay We're gonna call that growing together and this is how we're gonna execute it, you know growth mindset. I didn't invent growth mindset, but I do know how important it is, you know So but your version of growth mindset might be different than anybody else's expectations. That's great. I, it's funny because I look back at my first, my first Microsoft folder from 2001 as a head college coach. And I had four folders within my program. By year three, I had 27 folders. Team building, facilities, uniforms, and I had built it all teamwork, what we were going to do preseason, postseason. And it's amazing. The longer you do it, the more those things grow and they really become your philosophies and who you are and your program is successful because of those things. So you have your six pillars, but I am sure your folders are through the rough and what you, how your brain works. Very true. Coach, I'm so thankful you've given me the time you have. I've got two things I want to talk to you about and then I'm gonna let you go. And I find that I get on the phone with a new recruit, a new prospect and their parents. And I go, what are your goals? And the goals are always, I want to play division one, and if I have to, I'll play division two. Like it's, if I can't have the Ferrari, I'm going to, I'm going to drop down to the, the beat up Ford if I have to. What don't people understand about division two that you think they need to understand about division two? Yeah, I was just going to say that I could have filled your words in for you what you were going to say right there, the first thing they want. And I just encourage people like, I've been on both sides. I've been in division one for nine years. I've been in division two. I think the cool thing about division two is there's more parity. I tell my, our mission, our goal is to win a national championship at MSU Denver. We don't hide from that. We may reach that. We may not, but that's where we have a legitimate shot at that. And it's not about winning. It is about winning a conference, but our goals are bigger. And at division one, you might be one of. Four programs in the country in volleyball that probably have a shot at it or six, six programs. So I just think the opportunity to do that, but I think even more so what I love about division two is there is a lot It's about playing the sports, about being a student. It's about being an athlete. It's about being a part of the community. And it really is a more balanced approach to sports and maybe where division one was 20 years ago. But I think our athletes work really hard. They, they're, everything is not handed to them. So they really have a lot of and a lot of pride in what they're doing and they get the opportunity. To compete at a really high level, and they get the opportunity to compete for a national championship. They get the opportunity to, to be a part of the community that they're in and give back. We do a lot of community service division to and the opportunity to get the degree that's going to help them for the next step, and that being a priority as well. So I just think, The R Mac specifically, we have usually have four or five teams, maybe four teams in the top 25 every year. We're playing at a really high level at the top of the R Mac, especially, and we're getting to compete, deep into the tournament every year. And it's not about playing a lower level. I think we're playing at a very similar level. We like to play the division ones in the spring. So I can say that with confidence that we are playing at a high level and I just think, it, it all depends. Like when you look at recruiting, it's, I just encourage athletes don't just pick a division one, like actually do some research and to see like where you're actually going, after your Instagram post fades, in a year, like, where are you going to be? That's going to make. You successful that you're going to enjoy, and as hard as it is to say the people will make or break your experience. It really is true, and yes, coaches can leave and teammates can change, but your day to day life is going to be most influenced by the people you're around. And does it matter how big the facility is or any of those pieces that all matters for about. 20 minutes and then it becomes your daily life. And so visit lots of places, see different things, but don't pigeonhole yourself for an Instagram post. Yeah, I, it's, it I encourage families to go see every level play. If you're in Denver, go watch Colorado College Play. Go watch MSU. Go up and watch CU Boulder. Go watch DU play. But I have a feeling if I put the average family, average volleyball family in a gym, and I put MSU in white jerseys, and I put CU Boulder or DU in black or gray jerseys, and I said, tell me which ones the D1 is and which one the D2, I don't think most people would be able to tell the difference. And how they're coached, the talent level, the size that you have, I don't think they would know. Would you agree? Yeah. I think, the power five's different. The mid major level, I agree, and I think that yeah, it just, there's so many aspects to choosing a college. I would just encourage people to dive a little bit deeper than the division and be open to finding the best fit for you. Yeah, I agree. All right. You've already given great advice to parents. I'm going to ask you to do one more. If you're in a room, 300, 300 parents and they're 15 to eight year old, 18 year old volleyball players sitting there with them. What's the nugget you want them to take out of their all dream is to play at MSU to play college volleyball to get to that next level. What advice do you give them to start that process and to really do it right? Yeah, I think do the work is what I would say. Like you're going to have to do the work. I think there's a miss misconception that it's just going to happen for you. Because I play club just because I play club, all these cultures are going to come to me. There's a small percentage of athletes that's happening for. So I would say start thinking early, start making sure you have highlight film, making sure you have uncut film and then finding a way, especially if you're, your top five schools, finding a way to get in their gym, whether that's go to matches, go to camps. A lot of schools, I think now we do, we have ID camps where they're just like two and a half hour camps where you come, you play, we run it like a college practice and you get an experience on our campus where you get coached by us. We get to get coached by you. It just really expedites that process. I know it's hard to get to all of those, can't go everywhere, but if you get any kind of interest or they're recruiting your position, you just got to do the work to figure out, uh, what level are you playing at as well as. What your opportunities are and I just would encourage like Perseverance in that space. If you send me a, you send me an email the day before a qualifier and I'm already traveling, I'm on the road. I might miss that, so timing matters how often you're contacting matters. Yeah. But just boiling down to do the work, a 15 year old girl. I come to your camp. I come up to you day one. I say, coach. I'm Susie Rogers. I'd love to play for you, but if I can't play for you, would you give me some advice on what I can do as I walk out of here this week? What do you say to that kid? Yeah, I would probably just see what they've already done. If I have an evaluation of what level I think they could be at in the short time, I would probably try to help them that. Okay. There's all sorts of options from, Junior colleges, division three. Everything is, and even if that's not an option, we do an opportunity camp where we're talking to kids about club volleyball teams within a university intramurals. There's lots of opportunities to keep doing the sport. Even if. You're dead set at MSU Denver, but you're not going to be able to play for us. These are the other options even here. So I just think if I had an evaluation, I would try to steer them that way. And then I would give them advice on how do you contact coaches? I would say ask direct questions too. That's okay to do. Am I in your top five? If not, okay, then I'm not, going to come to that camp. Am I in your top 20? Am I in top two, asking that question of like, where am I on your depth chart right now? And you might get an answer. It's I don't know yet. Like you're just starting this class. I haven't seen you play a lot, but that gives you information too. So I think just being willing to ask those questions if you've had some communication with coaches also gives you an idea of where to steer your resources because it can be overwhelming and costly. And it doesn't always have to be. But I think if you ask the right questions, you can be super strategic. Thank you for that. Because so many parents don't understand. And so many kids don't understand that you want to help them. And it's so much easier for you to give them a three minute evaluation and a pep talk and a, Hey, try this or look at this level. I think this is where you're going to find more success than getting 15 phone calls and 15 emails from that kid over the course of the next few years. When really you already know the answer. Yeah, and maybe they can play for you. And you want to know that too. You want to, you want that kid that says, wow, you can really help us. We're so glad you reached out to us and want both of those. Absolutely. Yeah. And we, if there's two kids that are, fairly equal. And if one is like I, my dreams to play at MSU Denver, and it's been really like you can tell they want to play here that swings the pendulum, and we'll take that kid because you want kids that want to be there. Absolutely. Coach, I'm so impressed with you. I'm so thankful you took the time and I'm gonna be cheering for you guys right and left. I know the kids that end up in your program are going to leave your program as better women and better teammates, better people. And that is very exciting. So thank you for all you do. Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah. We'll be cheering for you. Good luck the rest of the season. All right. Sounds good. Bye. That's a wrap for this episode of the significant coaching podcast. I'd like to thank the delightful Jenny Glenn Head volleyball coach at Metro state in Denver, Colorado for sharing her unfiltered joy for coaching with all of us. I now understand why her teams are consistently ranked in the top 10 in the country. I could have talked coaching with her all day. That was a lot of fun. If you're enjoying these conversations, please click that subscribe and like buttons. If you're interested in working with me or schedule me to speak at your school or organization. You can schedule a free strategy session@coachmattrogers.com. Thanks again for listening. Have a significant week. Goodbye until next time.