Episode #34: Matt Lisle

Matt Lisle is the Assistant Coach and Recruiting Director for the Softball program at Oregon State University, but you may know him best from the guy sitting on the dock with his brothers every morning telling Dad Jokes trying to get each other to laugh.  That’s right, Matt Lisle is the oldest of the 7 Lisle children, and the 5 brothers are the ones you see on Instagram @Dock Tok and @LoganLisle (the creator of Dock Tok and Matt’s youngest brother), as well as Matt’s personal Instagram @CoachSaysJokes.

I came across Coach Lisle a number of year’s back when I was reading about Major League Baseball and the Seattle Mariners star outfielder, Mitch Haniger.  Coach Lisle trained Mitch for a number of years, and they are still close friends today.

Coach Lisle has had an amazing career as a baseball and softball coach at every level of college and the pros.  He’s worked with the Chicago White Sox as well as the D3, NAIA, JC, D2 and D1 levels coaching men (baseball) and women (softball).

We had a great conversation talking about the unusual family dynamic we share, as well as Dad Jokes and all things baseball, softball, coaching and college recruiting.  It was a very fun conversation to say the least!  Enjoy!

Learn more about Matt Lisle here:   https://coachlisle.com/ and https://osubeavers.com/staff-directory/matt-lisle/2842

Transcript

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Welcome back to the significant coaching podcast. I'm coach. Coach Matt Rogers. You may know this week's guests more from. Instagram and social media than anywhere else where. He and his brothers post daily dad jokes on doc. Talk with. His younger brother, Logan Lyle. And his own site coach says. Jokes. I came across, coach Matt Lao from his. I work with one of my favorite players to watch it. Mitch hamburger, a number of years back. Back coach Lyle is currently the assistant coach and recruiting director. Director for Oregon state softball, but he sat an amazing career coaching at. Every level from being a division three head coach. And working all. All the way up to the major league level coaching, hitting for the Chicago white Sox. Both of us come from big families and we had a lot of. Fun talking about growing up with siblings that are 15 to 16. Teen years apart and the joy of having those relationships now as adults. We broke down, hitting recruiting, coaching men versus women. And his expertise and great wit did not disappoint. I encourage you to check out his website@coachlowel.com. Com to learn all the good he's putting out into the world. If you're. You're enjoying these conversations. I encourage you to subscribe on your platform of choice. And leave me a comment with your thoughts and questions. You can always find me. At coach Matt rogers.com. When you want more information. Without further ado. Here's my conversation with coach Matt. While. Hi coach. How are you? Good, man. How are you? I'm good. Thanks for doing this. Oh, no problem. Looking forward to it. I got to be honest with you. I've been following you. You're just your baseball and softball blog for a long time. Nice. And. I feel like such a dummy because I just put two and two together that you're a part of doc talk and, most people have not figured that out yet. So you're, you're ahead of the curve. Oh, it's just so great. You guys are having so much fun and it's, uh, yeah, we are. It's a joy to watch. Thank you. Yeah. So it's a lot of fun. It's beyond whatever I, whatever I expected it to be or be about, it turned into something wild. So it's been fun. Well, that's really great. It's funny. Cause I did just a little bit of research this week on you. I'm, the youngest of five. Oh, nice. And I have Logan's the youngest of seven. I'm the oldest of the seven. So it's funny. We're on the different spectrums. I think I might be your age or a little bit older, but my. My siblings are all 11 to 15 years older than me. So my oldest brother's 15 years older than me. Yeah. I'm, I am 16 years older than Logan. I am, I just turned 47. He just turned 31. Yeah. So I'm about to turn 50 and all my siblings are in their mid sixties. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's wild. I said my, my parents are in their sixties, so. Yeah, my, my parents are in their eighties. So I love the story simply because I was seven years old and my, all my siblings were out of the house. I tell Logan all the time, like him and I are very close now. I only lived with him for two years of his life, you know? So, and then I, you know, I went off and did my life. And so it's not like we like lived in the same neighborhood or anything either. So like for, until he was in high school, I coached him in high school, actually. But until he was in high school, you know, I, uh, uh, uh, Sunday night to family dinners and stuff. So it's just, it's just weird to have where my brother, who's 44, I shared a bunk bed with him for 17 years. You know what I mean? So it's just, it's just funny how, you know, uh, family siblings and stuff goes. It's just different. Well, I want y'all, I wanted y'all cause I really want to talk baseball and softball. I want to talk hitting. I've got a thousand questions for you, but I wanted to, Talk about dad jokes and doc talk just a little bit. Cause you know, for me, my favorite part of every clip you guys do is who's going to hold out the longest. Oh my gosh, it's, I mean, the editing is saves me because I do almost 90 percent of the time, like, uh, it's just, I don't know why him and I did some stuff, uh, did a funny dad joke challenge on, uh, Saturday, we filmed it on Saturday. It's going to come out tomorrow where we, you dunk the other person in cold water when you, when you can't get the punchline and I'm like, just, I'm like, I'm just laughing hysterically. Like for whatever reason, I've always been that way. Like dad jokes. And for me, it's funny because. I never thought of it as some social media content, but in 2004, 13, 14, when I was, I would coach the catchers at Oregon. On Wednesdays, they had, they had to bring me their best dad joke. And like the winner got out of conditioning that day. And then before, at Fresno State, before the game, we would, I'd meet with all the infielders at third base, and just as an icebreaker, I would, like, come up, I would research, like, the best dad joke I could, and try to make them laugh. And so, like, it, it was always this part of my coaching, too, and, and with players, I never, again, like, you know, you never think, oh, I'm gonna share this stuff on social media or anything like that, and it's, but it's been a big part of my life. Career and then like I said, this thing happens. It's like, Oh, wow. This is a fun way to actually, you know, do some stuff. So that's really cool. You know, and my brothers and I, they're, they're all grandparents, I've got nieces and nephews that are in their forties. That's crazy. So for me, Any opportunity I have to connect to my brothers and sisters where we can do something together because we all live all over the country. It's, it's really fantastic. So it makes my heart sing to see you guys doing this together, knowing how different in ages you guys are. That's really cool. That's cool. Yeah, it has been, it's been, I said, I don't think he realized that much. Like he's 31 going on 21. It feels like when you're older, uh, and just like, but it also at the same time, it's been, you know, I said him and I went to Las Vegas last weekend to film with Netflix and like, you know, him and I spending three days together and doing a bunch of content for Netflix and stuff was, was really fun. And it was just, you know, so it was like, it's just like brother bonding stuff that. You know, I, we probably wouldn't have done before and we never have growing up. So it's, it kind of, it's almost like you get, you're getting like new sibling experiences all over again, which is rare at our age, you know? Right. Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. It's so good to see. And it, it, it makes me even more excited to see what you guys put out next, just from that, from the family standpoint, because I had no idea you guys were all brothers. Yeah, it's funny. It's it, I said, but in my, in Logan, which I think was really cool of him, he, from the very beginning was like, Hey, you know, I'm only going to do my, he has my brothers and we all, you know, all got involved in it. And he was really savvy about that. And, and so it's been cool. Smart, fun, fun, fun. So I'm excited for you guys got a big fan of me. And I mean, I don't talk to anybody anymore that doesn't know you guys and know and follow you. So even my wife gets into it, you know? Yeah, it's funny. Our head baseball coach texted me like two weeks ago, who I know pretty well. And he said. My kids just showed me a video on YouTube of you. He's like, I had no idea that this was a thing and that you were doing this yet. When I got hired at Oregon state in the first week, the head's basketball coach ran into my office. He's like, Oh my gosh, I've been following you for a year. I love your stuff. And I was like, that was my, that was my introduction to the men's basketball coach at our school. So I was just like, it's, it's just, weird. It's a weird thing. I don't know what a great icebreaker it is though. It's, it's, it's, uh, anywhere you go, you're always going to have that for the rest of your life. That's great. All right, coach, I'm going to transition into baseball and softball. I was a college baseball or a college basketball coach for better part of 15, 16 years. Oh, nice. Coached at the D three and D two level for a long time. I coached at Maryville university in St. Louis and then at the university of Laverne out in California. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No Laverne. Yeah. So it was fun. And so for me, my high school was so small. We didn't have a baseball team. That's, we didn't have enough players. My high school had, I graduated 260 kids in our school, but we definitely had a baseball team, but. Yeah, I think we were about 30 less than, I think we had two 30 and our track program was so good. Our track coach kind of kept baseball from ever becoming until I left and then they started baseball. So all I had was Legion and Colt ball. So I just, I just assumed there was no chance for me to play college baseball because we didn't have a high school team. So I went and played college basketball, but baseball has always been my love. And so anytime I can have a baseball coach on, I love talking baseball. So. I'm gonna throw a quote at you. I'm sure you've talked about this. I'm sure you've heard it, but George Brett, a couple weeks ago said, I'm gonna quote this so it can get your opinion on it.'cause I've, I've watched your, your talks on hitting and I want to get your thoughts on it. He said, I get in arguments all the time with hitting coaches and players today. He said my bat was always coming through the zone on the same plane as the ball. That's why I didn't strike out. Nowadays players strike out all the time because their bat is in and out of the zone. On the same plane as the ball for a short period of time, he says, I will go to my grave vowing that my theory is better than their teaching. Now, what's your initial thoughts on that? When you hear George Brett say those things, my initial thoughts are, don't ever, don't ever argue with the hall of fame hitter. That'd be my first, uh, first thought. Um, my second thought is that, uh, I agree with him a hundred percent. In the sense of what he was trying to do and what, like what he's, you know, saying it was, is good hitting, um, the part where I'm, I disagree or I there's some disconnect for me is that I really do believe that all the good hitting coaches out there right now are teaching that like the swing plane is equal to the pitch. And so like, you know, fastballs are coming in at like, let's say for example, 12 degree angle, or, you know, it changes by, pitch and things. But like, let's say the pitch is coming in 10, 12 degrees. I do think that the best hitting coaches out there and most hitting coaches, they're, you know, worth their weight, um, are teaching to match that plane. You know what I mean? So the, I think that, you know, 10, 15 years ago, totally agree that, you know, swinging down and all of these things that, you know, that a lot of coaches were teaching, Um, where it was or swings in and out of the zone. So like, I, I agree with him in the sense of like what he was trying to do and like, what's the right way. I would disagree that like, I don't think, I don't think there are hitters that are doing, I think hitters are actually really good at swing playing now. I think better than any, in any time I've ever been around hitting for the last 25 years, I think this is the best time. for swing plane that we've ever had. How are you guys at Oregon State? And where you, you know, you were at Oregon, you've been everywhere. How are you using analytics and film to help, help the kids see that plane and find it? Is that a big difference from where it was when you and I were kids? Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's, it's night and day. I mean, uh, I mean, um, you know, I was in charge of the hitting development analytics at, for the Chicago White Sox and from every level pro on down, everyone wants to know their data. They want to be able to use it. Um, for me, A huge unlock. So I would say in 2016, 17 was probably the time that I worked with the most major league hitters had like 50 different guys that would come in and spring training before spring training. And, uh, Without permission and as my wife, I bought a hit tracks machine and this hit tracks machine, uh, I used all winter with our hitters and I was using it for the, um, for the sake of like development, obviously. But what I learned was when you put a bunch of high level athletes or even 12 year olds in the same room with hit tracks, uh, and to get all their data. All of a sudden this like competitive culture, like the buy in, like everything becomes really, it changes. And so like, I think in the old days, you know, in the cages, you, you, you know, high five somebody, Oh, that was a good hit. That was, you know, and like, it's all, subjective and it's all, you know, we think that was good, but now we just have all the data. And so with, with blast motion sensors, hit tracks and rap Soto and everything we have now, uh, it's just really easy. Data is easy now interpreting it and teaching it. That's what I think we're the biggest problem we have in baseball and softball. Now is you have people who don't know how to interpret the data and that's a whole other topic, but I do think that we use it every day. Video blast motion sensors, hit tracks, exit. I mean, at Oregon state softball right now, we record every BP. You can see every ball is hits, got exit velocity, bat speed, launch angle. Everything we can use that to not only track and evaluate, but we can develop plans with it. And for the most part, 90 percent of the athletes love it and they get it. And some, you know, I've, I've worked with different major league guys. They don't want to know their data. They don't care. They just want to feel good. See the ball, hit the ball. Doesn't matter. And you have others that are really, really, um, want to get into it. That's what I, my worry is my ADHD would kick in. I would take all that data in my head. Would get away from seaball, hit ball. You've got to be really, really careful. Uh, you know, I work with a great example is over the years. I work with a hitter, Mitch Hanegra with the Mariners and like, Mitch is really smart and he, you can give him all the data, uh, you want and like, he gets it. He can process it and like kind of the conversation and I won't name names, but I got some other MLB guys. It's like, you can't, you can't, you just can't do it. Like you're saying, it just overwhelms them. And so what I have learned is like, everybody's different. And like, even the college level, I've got hitters that like, love to have the conversation. They want to break it down and sometimes they shouldn't like you got to kind of cut them off. But I think the best hitting coaches out there for the most part, they do very little talking. They do very little teaching of breaking down the analytics and the data, and they just set up the environment, whether it's a constraint or a drill or like, you know, they're asking them to execute something with as little teaching as possible. And we're just letting the hitter. C ball, hit ball and figure it out within the constraint of that, you know, whatever they're trying to get them to do, I hit a high fly ball or do this or hit the ball hard. Uh, I think the best coaches, uh, learn, Hey, I know Matt Rogers, he gets overwhelmed if I give him a bunch of data. So I'll hold onto the data and I'm going to create a program for him to excel in where I don't have to talk about the data, but I know, you know, what's going on in the background. I just want him to do his thing. Yeah. I love that. That's great. You just reminded me how I found you a couple of years ago was Mitch. Mitch was one of those guys. That I just love to swing. I thought, I still think there's a, there's a, an MVP in that bat. I really do. Yeah, there really is. I mean, I started working with Mitch 2016, uh, which is so funny. His story is so funny because I met with his agent, maybe the end of 2015. I met with him and his agent. I broke down his swing over video and he, uh, we went to Starbucks and he, and he's like, no, I disagree with all of this. And I don't think that's what the problem is. And then like July of the next year, I got a call like, Hey, maybe you were right on all this stuff. And like, we've been close ever since. And, you know, if you look behind my shoulder right here, like these are the cleats he wore in the all star game, he signed them and sent them to me. And we've have a great relationship. And, and, uh, he really like, He's a perfect example of someone who high skills, but, you know, needed to make some changes and was able to do it very smart. Uh, and just, unfortunately for him, he has had the least worst luck injuries. And I think, you know, I think as a fans, fans don't realize with the athletes at that level, like how much injuries affect. Swings all the stuff and all the things and it's it's been it's been a tough road for him the last couple years and I I also hope that he can get 100 healthy someday But you know as you know as we get older, it just gets harder to to get back to our prime self a little bit Yeah, I, I hope he gets that opportunity to be healthy and be in the right situation. He's one of my favorites to watch swing the bat. I'm rooting for him to, um, coach, you're a little bit like me. I coached men and women for a lot of years. I coached both sides basketball. It's a little bit easier. It's typically, you know, it's basically the same game, a little bit smaller ball, but it's pretty much the same game as a hitting coach. You're dealing with a pitch angle for a baseball player up here and then for a softball player down at the knee. How have you had to adjust as a pitching coach going from both? going from one to the other. It's actually not very much like the actual, angle of descent of the pitches are very similar. I mean, you could probably get in the weeds of arguing like one or two degrees left, like the attack angle. I mean, the, you know, the angle is steeper, uh, out of the hands for sure. But like The descent as the ball is coming in from a swing plane standpoint, it's very similar. Uh, I, I would not change anything between a softball hitter and a baseball hitter in the sense of their attack angle and their swings. Um, I really wouldn't the equalizer, uh, unfortunately, which I mean, it's fortunate for me is that the fences are 200 feet. So, um, if you were to get under a ball a little bit, because you had a little bit steeper attack angle, uh, than a baseball player, like. Baseball players gotta hit a ball 400 feet, 330 feet, and softball, it doesn't. So at the Division 1 college level, you have to hit a ball about 68 miles an hour in the air at the right angle at 99 percent of the ballparks to get it out of there. I have never worked with a D1 player that can't hit a ball 68 miles an hour. So, Whereas the college D1 college baseball level, which I've also coached at, like, you're going to have guys that can't go, can't hit home runs. Like it's not going to happen. So like, it's the, really the approach is more like, Hey, now if softball fences were moved back. 50 feet. It's a whole different conversation in a lot of ways, but, um, I don't, I really don't think that the, the, the hitting, I don't, there's nothing I changed really between baseball and softball. There really isn't, um, I don't change anything. That's, that's great to hear. That's exciting to hear. it's obviously a different game in terms of the size of the, the size of bases in terms of length from home to first and third. What's the transition for you when you're teaching slapping and bunting and, and kind of looking at these kids and going, this is where you can get on base. This is where you can be a run producer. I imagine that's greatly different. Yeah, it's, it's, it is a little bit, I mean, honestly. Um, I, I think people, you know, who've known me from a hitting standpoint will always say like, I don't like bunting. I love, I love bunting in baseball too. Uh, I don't, I don't like sack bunting now you have to remember like, I know I haven't coached, I don't coach youth baseball. So it's a whole different ball. So for me at the division one level and pro level, like, you know, most sack bunting is not, uh, that productive in some scenarios, but like drag bunting, push bunting, like I think people have to understand The philosophy of hitting like every hitting coach, especially for a team hitting coach, your philosophy should be get on base and do damage. It's not just do damage. Like you actually get on base part, like drawing walks. And like, you know, like walking is a huge piece, like, vision training and be like having plate discipline and all these things. And like drag bunny push bunny and being able to do these things like slapping. If you can have these tools on your belt to get you on base, like that's, that's what it's all about. We can, or the, the object of the games, both games is a score runs, you know, not like who can lead the team, who can have the most doubles today. And so for me, it's really about like doing those things very well. It's like drag bunny, push bunting, uh, things like that, like being very technical and really good at those things. If you have someone who's fast. Like that to me is really important. So, I think you gotta have all those facets of the game. Now, again, like we have some players who are large and slow and hit lots of home runs. Like that's not part of their tool belt, but I think every hitter should be able to find other ways to get on base. And if you're one dimensional, you only have power and you can only hit doubles and home runs and you can't draw walks and you can't, lay down bunts. I mean, you have value, but it's not, it's not as much as somebody who has more tools. I talk about this way too much when I have baseball coaches on, but when I, when I think of baseball, and I'm a Cubs fan, so this is hard for me to say out loud, I think of the 82 Cardinals and I think of the speed up top, being able to hit the other way, being able to hit behind runners and you, you know, there was a ton of sacrifice, pun that's kind of been. Eliminated pretty much in Major League Baseball. What is the reason that has changed as much as it has, where you see a guy like Kyle Schwarber, who's going to hit 40 home runs, maybe bat 200. It's now your lead off guy. You got a guy like Otani leading off for the Dodgers. I mean, you never would have saw that 10, 15 years ago. How do you see that? The strengths and maybe, yeah, I think the hard part for most fans or people involved baseball have been around the game a long time, um, is just understanding like the object of the game to score runs and like, we have so much data now that we just know that from a run production standpoint. Certain things have just more value. Uh, and so it's hard. I get it. Like it's, you know, for me, baseball is way more fun when it's played, like the 1982 Cardinals. It's like, I wish every ball, every batter put the ball in play and there was way more action. There was less strikeouts, less walks. I'm all for that. I a hundred percent agree, but we're talking about like professional sports, where there's money being made and teams have to win. And it's like, we've learned that like, Walks and home runs and power and doubles like the OPS these things certain things have higher value. Uh, and so uh, it's just tough like Giving up outs for sack buds all these things and so it's just hard now. I think The game's going to continue to change and evolve. I think that like stolen bases and like moving runners like these are things that could change the game if we can find ways to continue to improve stolen bases and we can challenge teams to create, like try to do more things to put the ball in play and these type of things, getting rid of the shift and the different things. So like to me. Those things are valuable, but in the way the game is designed right now, uh, there's more value in a Schwarber and Ohtani leads at the top of the lineup. And so they really find ways to change, uh, things like that. And, but here's the thing. I think, you know, I'm not a big fan of the sack bunny, but I will say this. Every division one coach or every college coach is out there knows that like, defenses still make errors and they make errors on bunts a lot of times too. So, for me, there's this kind of middle ground of like, I don't want to sack bun here, but, uh, like we know that this third baseman doesn't feel the ball well. So like, I know the percentage chances of him, even if we sack bunt, it still has a higher percentage. So, it's tough. I mean, it's tough. I, except for me, I think I have more fun coaching softball because the ball is in play a lot. There's a lot more. The game is very fast where baseball, I love baseball. Obviously I've been, since it says out of the womb, I've loved baseball, but the way the game is played at the pro level right now, they know what scores runs and the value and the players. And until that changes or they find ways to, put more balls in play, it's just not going to be a great product for a lot of people. And I, hopefully it changes. All right. So for your Oregon State Beavers that are listening, I promise I'm going to come back to softball, cause I know they're, listening. I want to want to hear coach Lyle talk softball too, but I'm going to make you the skipper of the White Sox. You've lost a hundred games already. What would you have done differently with that team from a hitting perspective? Oh my gosh. I don't, I don't know if you really. You really could do much. Um, I, I think it was the one thing I've learned in professional baseball and, and, and I'm a player development guy. I love player development. I have worked with players that I have seen go from average to making millions of dollars like that. I, am a solely bought it and I've seen at a college level. I've worked like we had a player last year, hit one home run the year before at nine home runs last year. And I a hundred percent believe in player development. Having said that, there's something that I, that it's hard for my ego to admit. A lot of times is that at the major league level, the cream rises to the top and like, you're not going to turn many, uh, average players into all stars. And so, you could improve things. Maybe they lose 90 games instead of a hundred because the development's a little bit better. The coaching is a little bit better, but like at the end of the day. At that level talent wins and like as much as we we want to focus on now I think at the minor league level and like I think it's all kind of adds onto each other and builds up but If you know i'm the if I was the gm of the white socks and I wanted to win 100 games I'm gonna go out there and spend the money and buy the player best players I can buy and that roster is going to win more games than a roster that has the best Development coaches and the whole cut every, you take the best coaches on every team and combine them, they're still not going to win as many games as the team has the highest payroll. And that's just, that's just the way it is. And so I think you can improve things. I just don't think you can, change things all around. I think it's hard at the major league level with managers and hitting coaches and all these guys, like they have a, you know, they have a bad streak of a month or two and bad season guys get fired and it's like. Maybe they would have won him one or two or five more games, but you know, I really believe that. And I would say 10 years ago, I didn't believe that I really felt like player development was, had more value. but again, if I have, if I have Otani. And I've got judge and I'm going to win more games than the guys who have the best coaches on the team. My cubs have been the epitome of that this year, firing their coach and paying 8 million for a new gentleman, new coach. And basically having the same results with the same team. I mean, I think it does help a lot, like, especially at the college level, you younger players. At the major league level, I think like a good manager can help you win a few more games, the good culture in the clubhouse, all of those things, I think have value. Um, and I think sometimes you get a great coach that really can make a huge difference. Uh, but again, you can only get so much out of these players. Uh, each one's, each one has a ceiling to some level. And if everyone knows that they're stealing, it's still hard to win a hundred games. Yeah. Well, we're going to get into recruiting here in a bit. Um, I'm gonna pick your brain on that. Um, I've been a shooting coach, basketball coach for 27, 28 years. So it always drives me crazy when a family will come to me and they've got a kid that wants to be a really good basketball player and they've hired a shooting coach and I go, tell me what they started with. Tell me what the shooting coach started with. And they'll say, well, they really worked on his elbow and his foul through right from the beginning to get that set. And for a shooting coach, that drives me crazy that they started with the upper body instead of lower body, because for me, anybody that shoots the ball, it's, it's all about your foundation. If you don't have a solid foundation, you're not starting from the ground up, you're never going to be a great shooter, no matter how good your follow through is. You might become a decent shooter, but you're never going to reach your potential. And I, was lucky enough when I was coaching in St. Louis, I would have, this was the early days of Albert Pujols when he was a Cardinal, Albert would be in my gym every single day. So I got to watch Albert hit, I got to talk hitting with him and his foundation as a hitter at 22 years old was absolutely amazing to me. Yeah. When you're teaching, and I've heard you speak on this, when you're teaching a softball hitter, a 17, 18 year old that just landed at Oregon State. What are, where are you starting from the hitting perspective? Um, I would, I would say really, it's just, it's really, really individualized. I would say like every, I would say every hitter so different. And so for me, we start practice next week and the first week will be all evaluation, blast motion, sensors, and exit velocities. And it'll, it'll be zero instruction and we'll take 500 swings and we'll get all this data and we'll say, okay, here's where you're at coming in and like, here's where we want to be. How do we get there? And I think every single player is just so different. I would say that at the youth level, uh, that like, like you're kind of talking about foundation, the starting point of the swing is really, really important. Uh, like, you know, having a good base and like, you know, being athletic, if you start in, I always tell the, like our kids. You know, like a 12, I've got young kids, I tell them like, all right, if I rate was to race, two kids were supposed to race each other and they're 11 years old and 11 years old and one kid. Uh, he starts backwards and he, he's facing the other direction. And then the gun goes, you take off, like who's going to most likely win the race, the person who started like in the right, good position. So at the young levels and young ages, like that's really, really important. So I would say at the older levels, like 17, 18, like they usually have some, uh, you know, pretty good setup in the sense of most things, maybe it's a tweak, but it's like, how do we make this hitter the best hitter they can possibly be? And like, Matt Rogers and Matt Lyle might have entirely different ways of doing it. I've got to find the best way that for you to get better. And then the best way for someone else to get better. And so I would just say the starting point is just different for every single person. Um, and it could be the lower half top hat. It could be, literally anything. Um, it's just like, what's the smallest amount of. You know, things I can inject to make you better without trying to overhaul your swing or all these things. Like what, what's something that could make it really easy. That'll make a little bit of a difference. Then we keep building from there. Well, when they get to you, typically they've already been studs for four or five years, they've already been the best player in their club and their high school, and they're already coming in with a sense of confidence in who they are. I would imagine when they get you, it's all about maintaining that confidence and helping them grow that confidence. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've had to give the speech so many times to at different levels of like, you got here because you were good, right? Like, you know, like, you know, it's like, I have to remind them, You got here because you're one of the top players in the country. Uh, and so that's, that's how, that's what got you here. So don't forget that part of it. Um, and I think for most hitters that I come into the equation, like even major league players, the conversation is more like, do you think you have the ability to get better or do you believe that you've reached your ceiling yet? I've never come across a player that said, yeah, I'm good. I think I'm The best. That is the best I've ever been. It is the best I'll ever be. I haven't come across too many of those. More, most of the time I get, I have hitters to say, I know I'm really good. I, they have had a lot of success, but I want to go to the next, I wanna go to that. I wanna be an All American, or I want to be this or, and so. For me. Um, but having said that, you know, it's funny to me, the biggest difference to me and softball and baseball, we've gone back and forth at high levels is that softball is really low hanging fruit. You have athletes who are incredible athletes and their talent got them there very much. But like there's where they're at, to where their ceiling is. Is so far apart versus baseball. Um, I think baseball players, like, you know, let's say they come in a scale of 10 is their ceiling. They'll come in at a six or seven and they can make it, get, they can get a little bit better, but I come across softball players who like are some of the best players in the country, their division one level, they come in and like their ceiling is 10 and they're like a three. And it's like, oh my gosh, like if you could learn how to do X, Y, and Z. Oh my goodness. And then I, like, I've seen it. I, and if it was, if it was one or two players, I, you know, I think that would be like, oh, okay, sure. But like, I have seen dozens and dozens of hitters that I have worked with, go from like one home run to 13 home runs, one home run to 15 home runs or gone from a regular player to an all American and one season, like the, the, uh, softball and female athletes that I have had the experience of working with, when they come to see me. Yeah. For the most part, they are very, very short of their ceiling. And to me, it's really fun. Whereas in baseball, I said, I've had a few players like that, but in softball, I have seen really incredible gains. and to me, it was pretty fun. What I love about what. Coach Berg has built what you guys are building at Oregon state. When you look at your roster, this is what's amazing to me. And I was a college scout for a long time. So division one softball, you got a five, four outfielder, five, five infielder, five, five infielder, five, four outfielder, five, two outfielder, five, two outfielder. I mean, you're, you're not. You're not judging a kid on their size at all. I don't think I've seen a division one roster with that many girls under five foot seven. Yeah. I mean, I would say, and I would say, honestly, if you're looking at last year's roster, we did have a lot of shorter players. I would say, We hit the portal pretty hard, this year and we don't, we're, we're much, we're much larger, but yeah, I think, I think what I've learned, I mean, softball, especially, but baseball as well, especially the college level, athleticism usually can trump a lot of things and I can, and I have a ton of value. So I love taking athletes and, and trying to improve them a little bit because they already have, So many of the tools we don't have to like, teach them how to be athletic because that's, I'm not gonna be great at that at the college level, but I can teach an athletic person how to move pretty quickly. Uh, and they, their learning curve is usually way faster. How much are you involved on the recruiting side coach? All of it. Yeah. I'm I pretty much run the recruiting. Tell me, tell me where you begin. When you start the recruiting process, are you looking, um, nationally? Are you looking at club? Are you looking at high school? How many of the girls are coming to you and saying, Hey, I'm interested in you? What does that look like? I know it's probably changes from year to year. Honestly, it's changed so much in the last five years. It's not even funny, but I would say generally, especially in softball, uh, it's all club. It's the world has changed. I mean, baseball is the same, but like when I first started coaching, we would watch high school games. It does high school. I don't even know where any of our kids go to high school. I mean, it's just, it's everything is to travel ball. You very rarely see coaches even at high school games anymore, especially it's because it's our, during our season, it's all ran through the clubs. Yeah, nationally. Yeah. I think a lot of players reach out, you know, I, I know that sometimes in some levels, like camps get a bad rap for some schools, but like everywhere I have been, camps have been a place where we invite invite the best players, we get players coming. And if you are trying to get, Seen by coaches at a school, you know, uh, now you go to a camp and you're not. You know, great. And you don't do well, then Mike, that's not a great showcase for you. But if you, you know, I have signed so many players that didn't know a lot about, or a little bit about they come to camp and you're like, okay, this is like this player and they're right in front of your face, you get to see, really see them up close and personal. So camps, I think is a huge way to do it. But obviously it's hard. I'll tell you this. I speak at these camps all the time and they say, can you Q and A and the kids ask questions. What do I need to do to stand out? All this stuff. And I know if you probably did the same thing in basketball and over the years, I've just had to say, I've had to say to them, Hey, I don't mean to be rude, but division one level at the end of the day, you have to have talent. You have to be good. And so like you, the having a great effort and attitude that's the given you, like, that's, that's the, that's the like lowest, uh, barrier. Like if you can't do those things, then they're not interested in any way, but like, that's not going to get you, uh, to this level. Like, and so I tell it, it was like, if I came to the show, if I came to a game and you hit three home runs, you have my attention. Like they, they, obviously that's an over exaggeration, but I think players seem to forget that, we want to have good attitude. We've got to be a coachable, all the things that we preach it, preach it, but. You actually have to have talent at the high as the higher levels go. Like you and I are not playing in the NBA because we don't have that level of talent. And at some point, talent is the thing. And so I think for a lot of parents, it's hard to hear that sometimes. So for us on the recruiting end, we go watch a show, a tournament or watch a club team. Like it's easy to go. That girl right there is the best player on the field. And that's who we want. So. It's hard because I think a lot of times parents don't want to hear that. They don't understand that. Now, again, we're talking about the highest levels. I've coached NAIA. I've been a head coach at D3. I've done all of those levels. And I think every player that I've been at, how to showcase like has the ability to go play at a D3 or NAIA somewhere, you know, and there's, there are schools that need players and, and so, uh, that's a different conversation, but, at the end of the day, like What are we looking for? We're looking for talent. We're looking for the best players because like our jobs are on the line and we want to win. And that's part of it. Uh, so, so nationally, locally, uh, just, we're looking for the best players, but I would say, thanks to the transfer portal, the world has completely changed. It's really changed baseball and softball and everything. And I think the transfer portal for coaches. gives us the ability to evaluate athletes that have already had experience at the college level. And so there's not, there's nothing like that. We take risk on a freshman. You have no idea. I mean, their talent level, but if we've got a couple of players coming in this year. We brought in 18 transfer portal kids. We brought in 18, probably more than any team in the country. And a lot of them, like we're starters are all conference players at their division one school. And I can look at their data and go, they've hit 30 home runs over their career. Like I know that she can hang at the division one level, you know? And so it's like the ability to compare her to the five freshmen we have coming in. We don't know. Like, the transfer portal has given us the ability to really evaluate somebody. And, and again, uh, having something, someone that, you know, what their, what their abilities are versus their potential, you know, it has changed the game ever since recruiting. And for me, uh, I would say going forward. We'll spend a lot more time recruiting the transfer portal than we will recruiting high schoolers. And that's just the nature of it until the portal changes. Uh, but like this year, I think softball had at least a thousand people in the kids in the portal. Yeah. I mean, it's insane. So, all right, coach Lyle, let's, let's save some, let's save some lives here. Let's save some, uh, some feelings. There's a ton of talent out there that's 17 years old. Every college coach, it doesn't matter if I'm talking to the coaches at Purdue for football, the coaches at Oregon state for softball, the coaches at Texas for volleyball, every single coach I'm talking to at the scholarship levels, talk to me about they're putting 99 percent of their time into the portal. When it comes to recruiting, because why would I go get a kid who's unproven where I can go get a kid that's somebody's already put strength conditioning to that kid, taught him how to work, how to handle a 4550 game season, how to hit a six foot two pitcher who's throwing 70 mile an hour curveball and then dropping it down to 58 on a on a change up, and it looks just like it. What are we telling these high school kids and these families about their future? Because all these kids you're getting out of the portal were high school kids, every single one of them. So what do we tell these kids and their families about this journey? Yeah, so the first thing I would say is that For athletes who are already at their colleges, like you better be very confident that when you go in the transfer portal, there's a new home for you. Because I can tell you, I know of dozens, and there's probably hundreds and hundreds of athletes who thought the grass was greener. They went into the portal and they did not find a new home and they quit softball or quit baseball or they left a division one school and I'm like, they're trying to find a D three or a juco. So be a hundred percent sure that when you are going to go on the portal, it's for a good reason. And you're not just like, Oh, a grass is greener. Uh, the, the athletes that didn't go in the portal for our team this year, we had two really good pitchers, really, really good pitchers that stayed and all Americans, I mean, the ability to be all Americans. And they had both been. transfers from other schools and they're like, I'm not going to the portal, because I know what it's like. And so I don't think athletes know what it's like, how hard it is, unless you're a top tier player. So that'd be the first thing. The second thing is, I think these parents just have to change their expectation of what the college journey looks like. I've coached at the JUCO level. It was the most fun year I've ever followed some of the most fun years of coaching I've ever had. Athletes are, they're really hungry. They love to learn. It's a whole different ball game than division one level. So I would say that parents just have to understand, like going to a junior college or an NAIA school or something like that, like these are not bad things. And like the state, there's no stigma of them. Like I go where you're going to have a great experience. And so. For me, if it was my son and I thought they were gonna be a division one player and maybe they were five years ago and now they're not because of the portal and everyone's changed the way they're doing it, then I'm going to find them the best junior colleges go to and develop it. And like, I think you're going to see at the pro level at every sport that like, Good 10 years from now, like they've all went the Juco route. They've all gone to NAIA D3. I think it's going to, it's just going to change. We're just so used to the way that things are, that every, everything looks different. So if it was my son or daughter, I would, figure out what's the best fit for them right now. And maybe I know it's hard to say like at the division one level to say this, but if it was my son or daughter, I would, and the only option was an NAIA or like something like that, I would say, Hey, go there for a year. Maybe you'll love it. Like maybe that's a great school, but you know, maybe you have a great year and like you can, you, and you want to transfer to the port or you want to try to go up to division one or try to train. I I'm okay with, I'd be okay with that too. I I'm okay with the teams using it as a. Levels as a springboard to go to the next level. I think parents should be okay with that. I think coaches who, should be okay with that too. Like, Hey, what's the best thing for this kid? what's the best experience for them? What's the best thing that that's what it should be about. So, uh, if I I'm, I'm all for telling my kid. You know what? You can have a great experience to go to Juco, play really well. And then guess what happens now you have an opportunity to move up, uh, and, and do that. And to me, that would be a way better way to do it. I I'm with you there. And it's taken me some time to come around. You know, I just, I just. A good friend of mine is Jeff Culver at University of Colorado, Colorado Springs, and he was the only coach to offer Derek White, Olympian, basketball player, just played on the Olympics, got a gold medal. He was the only coach, Division II, NAI, D1, to offer Derek a scholarship out of high school. Well, Derek transferred after two years because he was really good and went to Colorado and ended up being a draft pick. You look at UConn baseball, I think the number I saw was nine Division III kids. Yukon last year and played in the college world series. Yeah. I would just say, I think, I think a few years ago, and I think for a lot of people like that, that both of those stories is. Tough because you're, you know, you I'm, I'm with you a hundred percent, like the loyalty thing and all of those things. I totally, and if I'm that coach, my feelings are hurt. Like if I'm, if I'm a Colorado Springs basketball coach, my feelings are very hurt because you invested in the kid, all those things, but I would say this, I get it and I would be upset and I'll be hurt. And all those, and if I'm all the coaches of all those division three players, you con at the. End of the day though, like I really think the best coaches really like the reason why we coach the reason why we do this versus the jobs that pay much better money, is that the reason we do it is for the athletes and what's best for them. So, if an athlete was to, if I'm the Colorado Springs coach in that situation, like I, I gotta be upset. I'd be frustrated, all those things, but when the dust settled from that, I would really, I would hope that my feeling bike, this is what the best thing, this is what he wanted. This is what was best for him or whatever he felt was best for him. And like, I'm going to root for him and cheer him on. And that, in that sense, I think, and I think it's, it's hard. I said, maybe 10 years ago when I'm younger, I would not have felt that way. But I really think that are we really about the student athletes and what's best for them? If that's the case, I'm at a different level and they want to move up a level or transfer to a better program, whatever the thing is yeah, it hurts my feelings, but at the end of the day, I'm I want what's best for them and I'm rooting for them and cheering them on. And yeah, do I wish that they stayed with me a hundred percent, but, I hope that in the maturity of my, all my years of coaching, that that's the one thing I think, have shifted gears on a little bit. I'm really coming around. It's taken me some, it's taken me some time to really buy into the good of the portal and how healthy it can be. I'm still worried about the red flags. Like you talked about kids not having a plan when they jump in the portal or haven't, haven't really invested into that coaching staff, the way that coaching staff hoped they would have. So there's still a lot of coaching and teaching and mentoring that needs to go on, but I'm, I'm with you. Yeah, I think, I just think, I just think it needs to, it's going to have to keep evolving. Like the rules of it right now that I think tampering is just out of control. All of those things. I think we're going to have to figure our way out with the portal, but we're at a, it's not a good start, but there definitely needs to be a lot of changes going forward. I want to talk to you about one big change and you've given me great time coach, but I think, this is such a brand new rule that I really want to get your thoughts on it. It seems to me that the NCAA is just kind of throwing their hands up and said, okay, we're so tired of these lawsuits. We're so tired of dealing with all this. We're just going to make a big change. Football went from 105 Uh, are from, you know, a lot of division one schools for football, we're carrying 130 kids. I don't know even how they found the lockers, let alone trying to keep that many kids happy. But now the NCAA is capped. The roster is at 105 and instead of 85 scholarships, you can have 105 football scholarships at Oregon State. Now, crazy. Now we're talking about the portal. Now there's 25 kids. If I had 130 kids in my roster going into 2025, I can only have 105. That's another 25 kids in every program that are now in the portal. Softball is the exact opposite. You had a roster scholarship cap at 12 full rides next year. It's going to go to 25 and your roster is going to be capped at 25. Right. Am I reading that right? What does that do for your program and how you recruit going forward? Yeah. I honestly, I think for the division one coaches, I don't think, I don't I don't. I'm very curious to see what schools do with that 25 number. I think a lot of schools will stay at 12. I think some might go to 15, some might go to 20. I mean, I would be happy with 20. I don't think you need to carry more than 20 players in softball at 22. Maybe at the most, that's just my personal stuff. Um, I would say just makes our jobs a little bit easier. I mean, I'll tell you what, the amount of time that I spend in spreadsheets And breaking down the cost of attendance and you're negotiating deals, like a used car salesman with families, like, what can you afford to pay? And here's a 60 percent offer and like, right. Taking that off the table and just being like, here's your scholarship. I think for softball coaches and baseball coaches across the board, It's a dream. Like we've been talking about this for years. Like we were so jealous of like basketball and football, where it's just like, here's your scholarship. And you, like, you don't even have to talk about, I mean, we spend so much time with parents like, okay, well, what can you afford? Well, this school has given me 80%. This per school has given me 40 percent like that whole thing. Oh, it's so not fun. Uh, so for me, that's, it's just a huge, weight off of our shoulders of like not having to be a salesman and like, and like negotiate. The school, that would be the biggest thing. I think it's gonna, just like everything else that's been happening in college sports, the last few years, the, is the richer going to get richer and the poor are going to get poorer and it's going to get, it's going to continue to create divide. I think it's best for the student athletes. I don't think it's best for the sports. I think what I love about college baseball. Is that the coastal Carolinas and the mid majors and the Fresno states have a shot to go to the world series. I don't think that will be the case anymore when this happens. And I think that, it's already happened. It's been, that's been the way the softball along, but in baseball, what's having 11. 7 scholarships in these 35 like. You can't hoard all the best players. And now you can, and I think it will be the death of mid majors. So I said, I think it's best with student athletes and I think it's best for a lot of programs and they're going to make the money in situation and it's going to be so much better for them. I think for a lot of mid majors that are not going to fund 35, Scholarships or baseball or 25 for softball, whatever it is, because of the costs that that this could create a bigger and bigger divide. I think it's a conversation for a whole nother time, but I think the power, power for is going to break off and do their own thing relatively soon, five years, 10 years, two years, I don't know, but I think that division one. NCAA will become like the mid majors and the lower majors and the power four will be its own world. And I think we're heading that direction fast, or I think it'll be its own separate entity. And to me, I'm all for that because I do, like I've coached a lot of mid majors. And they'll never be able to go to college world series or go to be able to win a national championship because of the new stuff that's going on NIL and all this stuff. So I'm all for. A separation of like, Hey, here's what the power four have. And they have all the money and all the scars and then I have cool. That's great. That's like the professional level of college sports, but like everybody else, who's that a more equal playing field. I would, I would, I personally would love that product. I would watch it. I would be invested in it. I would like it just as much. Um, versus, you know, I don't want to, it's not fun watching, uh, a team that has all the resources in the world and money, you know, beat up on a team that doesn't. Yeah, it's a shame. Yeah, I really, I think the great evaluators of talent are going to rise to the top. Yes, because I think if you're that coach that says yes we're gonna we're going to use the portal to its fullest extent. But we know what we're looking for. We know what a great 17 year old pitcher looks like. We know what a great 17 year old outfielder looks like. We know what their character is, what their work ethic is. We study those things. We put time into those things. We may bring in four or five transfers every year, but we're going to bring in four or five great freshmen every year, and we're going to coach the heck out of them. I still think there's that world. And maybe I'm naive. No, I really do think that my, my feeling going forward ideally is that I think you're going to have teams that are half and half, like you're going to bring in, they're going to bring in a group of freshmen and maybe not like it'd be half the size as before, and they're going to be had this really good balance of, Players that they can develop and have, hopefully have for four years and do a good job with, and be able to bring in some talent at the upper levels or, older ages. I think the teams that would have the most success would be the, will really be really balanced in that scenario where I think, you know, the fun part about professional baseball, like we talk about talent rises, but like the Yankees don't win the world series every year. And the Dodgers don't win the world series every year and their payrolls are so like, uh, there's, there is context and all of that. Right. And so like, you can have the best team in the world. You can bring in the best portal class and still not win. Like there still are a lot of other factors involved in chemistry and culture and all of the things and coaching and those things are still factors. It obviously gives you a huge, leg up on everybody if you have all the talent, but it doesn't guarantee you success. And that's why we all love sports. That's why we all watch games and we cheer for teams because it's not guaranteed that team best team is going to win at the ballpark. And that is the fun of coaching. That's the fun of sports, why we all watch it and cheer and love upsets. And to me, my favorite sporting event in all the sports is March madness. I'm glued to basketball, those, especially those first four days. And just because I'm just rooting for the underdogs and the storylines. And if the best team won all those games, March madness wouldn't be March madness. It would just be March vanilla. And we would all just watch the games go. Okay. So, you know. All that to say, I think the teams that will still find good balances. I think it was still, uh, it won't be all portal kids. They'll still find ways to, to, to do it. Right. Yeah. If I, if I give Matt Lyle a kid for four years, instead of one, I think that kid that gets you for four years is going to be a pretty good ballplayer at the end of the four years. I appreciate that. And I think it's hard because, athletes don't realize that, If they had stayed with that coach for the four years, they would have gotten better and better and better. And if they bail after one year, it's more difficult to do that. So for me, um, it's, that's a tough, that's a tough one. And as parents and coaches, we're trying to, you got to do a good job of communicating with your athletes and letting them know, like, Hey. I'm invested in this thing and one of you too. And, you try to save, you try to save a few of those, within our, in our portal situation right now, we had a player that left in the portal and, it was kind of following some other friends and stuff. And then I ended up having a conversation with her of like, Hey, you got so much better this year. Like you have so much potential, like come back, let's finish this thing together. And she did, and I'm really, really excited about that. I'm really excited for her. And so I think, coaches, I think more coaches can do a better job of trying to figure out, okay, you know, the grass could be greener, but like, stay with me for a little bit. Like, let's, let's try to finish this thing together. I think you can still do that. Fight through some adversity. See what happens. Coach, I really appreciate you. We're doing a thing called, um, One Minute Coaching. And I'm just going to give you this question, and I want just your, I know you've done this a thousand times and been in front of so many families. But what's the, in a 30 second, 45 second clip, what's the best advice you would give to a baseball softball family going through the recruiting process? And I know you've already given me some, some things about transferring and the portal and thinking about that, but what's the best piece of advice you give to that teenage? Their family. Uh, for me, the best advice that I would give them is to like really, really invest in the development piece as much as you can versus just the exposure piece. I've seen so many families have spent all of their money showcasing and finding out like there's not showcasing very good stuff. And so I would say if it was, if again, if it was my, I was thinking of it just as my, one of my kids, I would spend that money on development and talent, getting like getting as, as best as it reached, help them reach their ceiling, the best as possible. You still got to do the right things. Like be proactive in the process, like the world has changed 20 years ago. Like high school coach, college coaches aren't coming to high school games. It's looking for talent. You want to be on the best. Travel ball team that you possibly can get and get the most exposure that you can get for what you can afford and what is good for and good for your kids. And so you have to be proactive, to an extent, but again, I think parents forget the, development piece and spend too much time on the exposure piece. Like it's gotta be really balanced. You gotta really spend time on development piece, get as good as you can, because. I see kids who are on travel ball teams that they're not good enough. Like the talent level is way too high. They ride the bench, they get exposed because they aren't great. And so get to the highest level. That's going to push your kid, you know, get the most exposure, all of that stuff. But at the end of the day, you have to be actually evaluate your kid and be like, okay, you know what? He's not as good as we thought he was, or he is this, and I'm going to spend some time. That getting them better. And so focus on the development, and the exposure stuff it'll show up, but don't tip the scales too far to the exposure side. The next thing, you know, like you have no offers and no one is interested because you forgot to focus on the talent. That's great. It's great advice. Coach. You want to talk a little bit about coach lyle. com and doc talk and I would just say if you're a baseball or softball parent, check out my website, the hitting vault. com. The best way to explain it is it's a master's class, a master class for baseball and softball hitting. And it's not just swing mechanics. It's the mental game. It's we talk about recruiting. It's if you want your hitter to be better. It's a course that I developed for walking in. It walks you through, holds your hand. Even if you're not a parent that knows a lot about hitting, like you can buy it and still be able to, I would say that's the biggest thing. And if you want to follow me, I'm at coach Lyle on everything, Instagram and Facebook and all that good stuff. Yeah. And if you want a giggle every day and watch coach Lyle with his brothers, uh, dad jokes, doc talk, coach says jokes, it's all hilarious. And, thank you for doing that. And, I just love that you're doing it as a family. It's so fun for me. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Appreciate having me on. And it was very fun. Coach. It was a pleasure. Good luck this year. We'll be following the beavers and I know you guys are going to do great and have a great winter and we'll talk to you soon. Thanks Matt That's a wrap for this episode of the significant. Coaching podcast. I'd like to thank coach Matt Lao for sharing his great family. Family stories. And his great perspective on coaching in life. I could have spent the entire episode just talking family and dad jokes. That was another fun conversation. I hope you laughed and learned as much as I did. If you're enjoying these conversations, please click that subscribe and like, Like buttons. If you're interested in working with me or scheduling me to speak at your school. School or organization, you can schedule a free strategy session at coach. Matt rogers.com. Thanks again for listening. Have a significant week. Good.