Episode #57: Ron Zetcher

Hall of Fame Leadership with Ron Zetcher: Lessons from a Legendary Official 

In this episode of the Significant Coaching Podcast, I sit down with a true legend in the world of sports—Ron Zetcher. A Hall of Fame athlete, coach, and one of the most respected officials in basketball, football, and baseball, Zetch’s career spans decades at the high school, collegiate, and professional levels.

We dive into his journey from standout multi-sport athlete to officiating some of the biggest games in college sports. He shares insights on leadership, integrity, and what it takes to earn respect on and off the court. Beyond his incredible résumé, Ron played a pivotal role in my own coaching career, serving as a mentor during my years as Head Men’s Basketball Coach at Maryville University. His wisdom and generosity shaped the way I approached coaching, leadership, and even fatherhood.

Join us as we discuss his experiences, the evolution of officiating, and the lasting impact he’s had on athletes and coaches alike.

Listen now on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, iHeartRadio, and all major podcast platforms.

To learn more about Ron Zetcher and his remarkable career, visit his St. Louis Sports Hall of Fame page.

For more resources on the college recruiting process, visit CoachMattRogers.com.

Transcript

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Welcome back to another episode of the Significant Coaching Podcast. I'm your host, Matt Rogers. And as always, we're here to give athletes, parents, and coaches the insight and strategies they need to navigate the college recruiting process. Today I have the great honor of introducing Ron Zetcher or Zetch as he's known. He is a Hall of Fame athlete, teacher, coach, and one of the most respected officials in all of basketball, football, and baseball. His career spans decades from high school to college and even the professional levels, earning him multiple Hall of Fame inductions and awards for his contribution to sports. Zetsch was inducted into the Greater St. Louis Amateur Baseball Hall of Fame and the St. Louis Jewish Sports Hall of Fame in 1997, the Missouri Sports Hall of Fame in 2007, and the Missouri State Show Me Games Hall of Honor in 2008. He was also inducted in the MIAA Hall of Fame in 2011 and has received the Ellis Veitch Award for Excellence in Officiating and the Terry Franke Award for Contributions to Basketball in Missouri. His impact is so great that Ledoux High School established the Ron Zetcher Freshman Football Award and a locker room in the Maher Velton Fieldhouse now bears his name, His kindness, wisdom, and generosity helped shape the way I approach coaching and leadership. I am truly grateful for his influence, and I can't wait for you to hear his story. Now let's get to it. Here's my conversation with the great Ron Zetcher. Coach Zetsch, it's been such a long time since I've gotten to see you in person. It's so great to see your face. And I'm so thankful that you said yes to come talk to me today. We had a lot of fun years ago in the, SIAC. Yes, we did. Yes, we did. And it's a great transition because I want you to know how much I appreciate you. forget coaches, forget administrators, forget what your title was. You were one of those guys that if I'm any good as a coach, you played a major role in it because you taught me how I was perceived and how I wanted to be perceived. I can't remember how many times I've called you and said, Zech, I don't understand this rule. Explain this rule. you've helped me become a better basketball coach, a better teacher. So I wanted to have you on,'cause I'm just so darn thankful that I've had you in my life these last 25 years. I appreciate, the kind words. coaches and officials have a, To begin with, it's generally considered an adversary relationship, right? And what I always try to tell every one of the officials that worked underneath me or with me don't ever become bigger than the game cause you're not. you have to be there. They need you, but, when you start thinking that you're bigger than the game and you think that you're more important than the coach on the sideline, then you're going in a bad direction. be able to, communicate with coaches and look them in the eye. I had a boss in the big 12 after Johnny Overby left named, John Erickson. And one of the things that John Erickson told every one of us, and, he was a Christian man and a very straightforward guy, a lot different than Overby. They were two polar opposites. John Erickson said, when you're going to talk to a coach, don't talk to him over your shoulder. Stop. Do you have something to say? And look him in the eye and talk to him. Look him in the eye. And if you want to yell at him when you're running by you're gaining nothing, you're going in the wrong direction. And it was good. advice. And it's the same advice that I heard as a young coach. I heard don't be bigger than the game. Cause it's real easy. You see it on TV every night, coaches that are, they don't get it. They're trying to be bigger in the game and it was a great lesson for me. I bet the first four years I was at Maryville, my probably age 26 to 30, I probably got five or six technical there was a point where you and I were on the phone one night after game and I was heated and upset and you just, made it clear, these guys. They're partners with me, the officials, the players, the other coaches, the fans, we're all partners in this trying to do something good. when I start seeing the game as a coach. as a participant and not somebody that has to own it or be in charge of it. I became a better coach and we had great officials in this life. I love those guys. I never thought I would be friends with so many officials, but I was excited when guys walked into my gym because we had that relationship. When I was supervising the SLYAC and supervising the MIAA, I was still refereeing also at the same time. So it was easy for me to relate to the coaches and to the officials, because I was still doing it myself and I used to tell the officials. As long as you do the right thing. No coach is going to tell you they're going to tell you're never be back here again, but just don't even pay attention to that. The only person who's not going to bring you back is me. And if you do something egregious. then maybe you won't be back, but other than that, just do your job, I don't want to mention their names who I thought were tremendous officials. Guys who worked for me. Yep. He said here's what the walkaway is. When I'm with my team and I'm at my bench, that's my home. Okay. I belong there. When you come over there. You're just a guest, okay? And when you come over there, you're coming into my house, and if you and I are having a conversation, and it's going in the wrong direction, you need to know what the walk away means. That means you turn away and you walk away from me. Because the conversation is not going to get better. Now, if I follow you and chase you out on the floor, you better have the you know what. To turn around and tee me. What great advice, Bob Knight. And it's not the advice people probably expect from Coach Knight to an official. No. He was a very misunderstood coach, by the way. Yeah. He was the champion of officials in the Big Ten. every year he would ask the commissioner, How much are they paying the guys in the ACC? And the commissioner would say, for namesake or money sake, the commissioner would say we're paying, in the ACC, we're paying 700 a game night would tell Jim Delaney, Jim, and we pay 800 a game. Cause we want the best. That's right. Wow. I'm not. And told me, he says, I don't with officials who miss c I have is when they reall turn around and tell me c know what you're talking because I think I know a Bob Knight did know a little bit about basketball, just a little bit, it's so amazing. I was blessed for, he passed away, playing in golf tournaments with, college coaches and things like that, I think what. The audience when they're watching TV, what they see in the heat of battle, and then who the coaches are off the floor and how kind they are. We all got into this business for one reason, we wanted to teach, we wanted to be around kids. And he was definitely that guy in a lot of ways. Very misunderstood guy, Coach Knight. when he passed away, one of the writers for the post, called me and asked me basically what I thought of him and the guy wrote a pretty long column and I'll tell you what I liked about Coach Knight, or I should say what I respected is that he met you referee. if you went back and looked at every game that he coached. You would not see him up and down, running, ranting, and raving up and down the sideline. He just, he coached. He was good. And if he said something to you, particularly about two things, you better listen. He knew traveling better than any official in the country. Much better. And he taught his kids to play with their feet and keep your hands off the opponent. And he expected you to keep the other team's hands off. And I'll tell you a cute story. I don't know if I told you this, but years ago I had the Indiana Purdue game. It was at Purdue and Purdue has that raised floor. Got the race for so the game starts, we're going up and down and back and forth. And all of a sudden, night sitting way down low, you can hardly see him And he says, Hey, Ron, get their hands off. And I just ignored him and came back down the floor. And next time in the same thing, Ron, because the two guys I was working with, see, I got in a big tent a lot later than most guys, because at the beginning, they only took guys from the States. That had big 10 teams and the years went by and then they brought guys in. See, I'm with Hightower and Tom Rucker. They've been in the long time. So that's three hall of famers on the floor. Yeah. Those two guys were big time, big 10 hall of famers. Believe me, I was just a neophyte in that league. So of course nights, he's given it to me. He's not saying a word to those two guys. So finally, about the third or fourth time down that I ignored him, I hear that voice, Ron, I'm telling you, if you don't get their effing hands off. I'm coming up on top. I thought to myself, I'm not the smartest guy in America, but I'm going to find a handshake real quick. And I found one coach and he stayed down low and we had a great game. I didn't want that big man up there. Oh, he was awesome. That's how he, left us. Think about it. Yeah. Hard to picture in it. I can't even imagine. No. He just, he always seemed to, he had his faculties and everybody else's faculties going on in his head. He looked like bigger than life. Bigger than life coach. how did you get into officiating and what was your path to become a major division one official? I'll try to start from the beginning. baseball was the first thing that I started doing. I was umpiring baseball. And, one night I went down to Johnny Mac's sporting goods. You remember Johnny Mac? I do. And, I went down there to buy some umpiring equipment. it was winter time and I'm going to get a mask and I'm going to get a chest protector. Boy, I'm going to get all the gear and all this stuff. And while I'm down there, Johnny Mac says, have you ever refereed basketball? I said, no. He says you played, you're a pretty good high school player. You want to go referee a game tonight? I said, being young and stupid. I said, sure, I'm good. So he gave me a shirt and, I think I had on a pair of khaki pants. He said, I don't care what kind of pants you wear. He sent me down to this Baptist church league, right down by Jewish and Barnes hospital. I go in there and I'm a young guy and there's an older man there. I don't even remember who he was and his Baptist church league or adults, and you know what those adult leagues are like, so before the game. I'm just standing here. I think I got it. I get it. that guy will throw the ball up and I know what a foul is and what's out of bounds. So there's having a prayer, the game starts. And they call me everything under the sun, man, that prayer was over. That's how I got started. and I liked it. I got lucky. I started doing a lot of high school basketball I started off and I tell all the young guys, you got to, crawl before you walk and walk before you run. And I work games, freshmen games, sophomore games, double headers forever and ever. And, I finally, I got a call one day from Ned crane, who was the, he was a teacher at Parkway Central. But he was in charge of the Suburban League football and basketball field. He assigned them all. And I got a call from this Ned Crane. I'll never forget it. And he said, we'd like you to work varsity basketball in the Suburban League. I thought that I was working the NCAA finals. I was so excited. Gave me eight games. And that's how it started. A lot of the veteran guys who were pretty damn good. helped me. Guys like Harold Booth. and then I became pretty close to Rich Ec. And, gene Barth. all the veteran, officials, Dave Phillips, they all helped me. my big high school break was when I got hired to, officiate an en Normandy Christmas tournament that was like gold. 32 teams, green and the red divisions. And all the guys that I work with in the, tournament, they were all like big time guys. Okay. Barth and Hantech and Phillips. And, Chuck Currinder, Bob Schapp, an old timer, real old timer. And then Schumer eventually got hired to work there and Marv Andrew. So that's how it all started. and I ended up working in basketball, the Missouri state large school finals three years in a row. I found that very interesting. The first year, every official that I knew and those that I didn't know called me and they were just Ron. This is all congratulations. You know how you get all the accolades. Oh man. What a great, the second year in a row. about half the guys called. the third year they all called Columbia and asked them, why the hell is this guy working all the finals? It was all envy and jealousy. It goes from, yeah, why is he still there? So I told one of the guys, he was, in jest, saying, yeah, why do you go every year? I said I guess they think that I'm good enough to go every year. I said, they don't put a limit on DeSmet going every year, do they? That's right. Why does DeSmet go every year? Because they're the best team. And the coaches vote for all that. Amen. And so Jack Miles was the MESHA director. he was the, top dog. And so Jack Miles had a lot to do with me coming down to Columbia. Those three years. Jack Miles and Bernie Sago were real good friends. And Bernie Sago had the same job in Iowa. He was the head of the Iowa, activities association. He also was a part time employee of the big eight conference. He was a supervisor of officials. So Jack Miles. You know how it works. you need to get a hold of Ron Zetcher. So that's how I got into big eight with that golf. And, sometimes you gotta be pretty lucky. You know what I mean? They appreciated your game. They appreciated the way you worked game and the coaches appreciated the way you worked the game. So I got into the big eight and the big eight conference at that time, he had 13 referees coach period. That's it. 13. And the year I got hired, they, added three of us. So the total is 16. Now if I told you the guys who were in that league when I got hired, I'm coming from Missouri state finals, man, I'm big, I'm a big timer, and then I go into that conference and there's Ben Dreyf. You've heard of him. Pat Haggerty. Dave Phillips, Johnny Overby. Roy Clymer, Ron Spittler on and on Jim Bain. So we're talking about a staff. Almost every guy in there is NCAA tournament. Most of them have worked the final four and here I am, but I'm a great high school official, man. I'm ready to go get them. And I was absolutely out of my league and this is the truth. two man games, Irv Brown, who may be the greatest of them all. I worked a number of games with him and overbeat those two years at the end of two years, I'm at home and I get a letter from Bernie Sagoff. Ron, and he was awesome guy. I think Bernie's still living probably in his early nineties. Ron, I treat our staff like you would, if it was a major league roster, every year in a major leagues, they have 25 man rosters and at the end of the year. I have to go, so to make a long story short, we're going to bring in some new people and we're going to have to let a few of you go, so I'm gone after two years. And I'm like, you go from. Being on top of the world to wholly what's happened. So I remember I went out of town at summer with my family and really, feeling sorry for You know how you are, while I was gone, the supervisor in the Missouri Valley, got into it with the coaches and the administrators. He wanted three officials and they said, we're not ready for three. And he tried to play their hand. If you can't give us three officials, I don't need to be doing this anymore. And they said, fine, they wanted to get rid of and he gave them a reason. So who do they hire? John Overby and love me for whatever reason. So I get back from my vacation and Overby hires me, That's right. Here's what he told me, Matt. He said, I'm going to tell you why you didn't succeed in the Big 8. And he said, I refereed with you, and I thought you could referee, but he said you had two really glaring weaknesses. You didn't take care of coaches the way you should. You let them take advantage of you. And he said, you let veteran officials sometimes take calls away from you that were good, solid calls, and you should never have let them do that. He said, you correct those two things and you can work for me as long as you want a referee. Boy, that's all I had to hear. And it just turned my whole officiating career around. And what did that look like for you? What did those changes look like? My philosophy after that was, if I run by you and I've just made a call and you tell me that was a blankety blank call I have no problem with it. You know what I mean? Because that's not a personal thing. But if I come by you and you tell me, Hey, you know what? You're one of the worst, no good blankety blank officials. You better address that. And that's something that I learned, and I also learned, and I try to teach young officials. If you see a call that you know your partner really blew, okay, and out of bounds, you go down to them and you don't tell them they missed it, you say, do you think you need some help on that call? if they say no, then let them live with it. Go back to your business. Don't debate it with them. Most of the time, a good official, if somebody comes running to me and it's a bang, bang, and they say, Ron, you need some help, I'm going to tell them. Yeah. Because then if they're going to change that call, they should be 100%. I was wrong and they got it right. Is anybody teaching it that way anymore? I don't think so. I don't know what they're doing on the college level. These guys who are supervisors of these big conferences, they're running camps in the summer. They're bringing in 50 guys one week and next week, another 50, it's a great moneymaker. Great money maker, but just how much teaching are they really doing? I don't know. I know on the high school level, I had some grandsons who played, and I went to more games than my daughters probably wanted me to go to, and I saw stuff there that as coach, it just would turn your stomach. See, I don't know how they look at it in high school officiating, but it's hard for these young guys to get a break because a lot of the old timers, there's a guy still refereeing high school basketball that they're in their sixties and early seventies. And you got these young guys, they're given nothing. But these young guys. They're working girls, freshmen, boys, freshmen, and they can never get a varsity game. So what happens after a couple, two, three years, they become discouraged and they leave. And you've got to give these young kids, more opportunities. That's the biggest thing. And then teach them, look, if they don't know the rules and they don't know the mechanics of the game, they should never be hired to begin with. So assume they know the rules and assume they know the mechanics and you can help them on mechanics. There's certain things you can teach them that'll make it easier for them. But if they don't know how to deal with players and coaches, if they don't know how to communicate with players and coaches, they're never going to be successful. They're going to be that guy that you don't want to see walking out that door. if I'm a supervisor of officials at any level, I am calling you and saying, can I just get you for an hour? Can I just get you to talk to all these young guys and gals and give them enough advice, from a coaching perspective, to give them some confidence that goes beyond the hand signals and understanding the rules and just the decorum that you had with coaches and what you went through to get to that point. It's so valuable. And Matt, it's a learning process. It's something, guys, they all want to, I have guys in the MIAA and the SLIAC, you were involved with the SLIAC and I had guys in the SLIAC, they would come up to me and they go, Mr. Zetscher, I can go to the, so and so's division one camp, I said those camps are very expensive. And they go, yeah, they sent me a thing in the mail. I said they sent a lot of those things in the mail to a lot of people. And I said, truthfully, you're not ready to go to a division one camp. you're not even working a big schedule in the SLYAC. Oh, Mr. Zetcher, thank you so much. And then they go 500 next summer, 500. who you are. Your ability and don't rush it. Don't rush it because I got lucky. Okay. I don't think nowadays, if you were in a conference for two or three years and then let you go. I don't know if there's any coming back again. You follow me? I do. Yeah. I got lucky. Johnny Overby happened to show up and I was a lucky one. Yeah. You were a good official. You just, needed the right direction and you need the right people around and you got it. And it's like anything else. it's like coaching. I was lucky. I was head college coach at 26 and I had Gene Myers on the bench next to me, a guy with 35 years experience as a head high school coach. I don't know if I would have lasted three years without Gene. And never told me what to do. He never got in my face, but he was my partner, and we all need that. You gotta be a good listener. remember Jeff Burke? I'm going to tell you a great story about Burke. So Burke's got a game with Billy Westbrooks and Todd Burchett. so the games at, central Missouri and it's one of the first Games that Burke's had in the MIAA, I gave him four or five games there and see how it goes. So on the way down there, we're telling Burke, look, Kim Anderson, you're brand new Kim's gonna get on you. I'm gonna tell you ahead of time. Don't take it personally. Kim's just going to test you. Burke, you're not the greatest communicator. I told him in the car. When Kim starts wanting to get into a conversation with you, get away from him. Let Billy or Todd go over and talk to him. So Sure enough, the game starts and early in the game, there's Burke right over there trying to explain something to him. And it's like somebody told me years ago when I got into a conversation with Norm Stewart in the first two years. You look like you're in quicksand. Afterwards, we get in the car on the way home and Todd and Billy said, Burke, what did we tell you on the way down? Berkey's, I know I shouldn't have gone but Berkey did go over there. Anyway, you can lead the horse to water, right? Sometimes you got to learn it the hard way. Yep. He learned it the hard way that night and Anderson was just messing with him. Yeah. I could tell from the beginning and a little smile on his face, yeah. Give me a story or two of, we talked about coach night, but give me a story or two at the D one level of games that are just. Cemented in your head where you had to deal with some big time coaches and how you dealt with that. one of the big mistakes I made, with a coach at the time had a lot of respect for me. And my arrogance this particular time really, it really created a situation where we never had a good relationship again. It wasn't bad enough that I didn't referee for him, but Larry Brown and I had a pretty good relationship when he came to Kansas. as a matter of fact, my oldest daughter was a freshman, at Kansas at that time and became very good friends with Larry Brown's daughter. And one time when we were talking, just like you and I. He told me, he says, the only thing that really pisses me off. He says, what officials, if they throw their hands at me yeah. Time goes by and there's a game he's playing Iowa state over in Ames and in four years, he never beat Johnny or at Iowa state. And I think I had every one of those games, so he's frustrated. He's getting beat again. I'm almost at half court and there's a play underneath the basket that the official flat ass blue. Okay. Awful call had nothing to do with the game. You understand, but now that he's losing, he's looking for something. So instead of taking his wrath out on his coach, he's yelling at me about the call. and he had a really, a piercing voice, Brown, really screaming at me and yelling. And finally, I did what I just showed you and threw my arm at him. And he went off. And he sent caught a timeout and he sent his captain over and his captain basically said to me, he was nervous. He said, Mr. Zetcher, coach Brown told me that, when the game's over, if you walk out that back door, where you officials go, he's going to be waiting for him when they hit you in your mouth. I said you know what, I'm going to be going out that door bring it because that's the only way I can leave. It's the only way they can get us out of here. Nothing ever happened. And he wasn't out there, but anyway, what happened, the way the scheduling was, I had him, I think the very next or the second game after that at Kansas. And I was really embarrassed because I was a hundred percent wrong coach. And, you've got to go down and shake their hands. And I just think the only thing I can do is tell them that I apologize for the way I acted. And I told him that, and he accepted it. He shook my hand. Our relationship was never the same. And it was. Only one person to blame for that. That was me. And then Billy Tubbs, that's another guy that I loved. And we really had some raucous times with him. And I went into his huddle one night cause I was pissed off at him and he was screaming, I went into his huddle and we really got into it and all of a sudden this big guy. towering over me, looks at me, says, and he's very polite. He said, Mr. Zetscher, I think you don't belong over here. I think you belong back on the court. It was Tinsdale. I went, Oh, I better. Yeah. But Tubbs, I love, and his son, found me on Facebook and we communicate a lot His son wants his dad, his dad passed away about a year or so ago, two years ago. His dad does belong in the Hall of Fame. I agree. Yeah. And they're working hard. So when his dad went to TCU, Tubbs and I always had a pretty good relationship. So I go down to shake his hand when he's at the TCU, see, and he's got his back to the floor and he's. Waving to some people up in the stand. So I wait for him, till he's done with his waving and all that. And he told, Oh, Hey, hi, is that, and I said who in the hell are you waving to up there? He says, those are my grandbabies. I said, don't embarrass them today then tubs. Okay. Behave don't embarrass those little grandkids years. So most of those guys were pretty good guys. Like I said before, they had a job to do. I had a job to do. We try to coexist the best we can. Yeah, it's just, it amazes me, Zetsch. Look at the names we talked about. Norm Stewart, Johnny Orr, Larry Brown, Billy Tubbs. These are the greats of the great. And you stood face to face and toe to toe with them and coached some of the greatest games of that decade. Look at the big eight. You're talking about Johnny or and clubs. How about Jack Hartman at Kansas state? My goodness, a great coach and, my first year in the big eight Cipriano was a head coach over at Nebraska, he had the infamous game. Remember, I used to have that starters pistol at the table, use that, it would shoot that pistol to end a half or whatever. And he was wanting to time out and they wouldn't give it to him. And this, and he ran down there and shot that pistol. You don't see that anymore. Those were those guys. Eddie Sutton was good to you. He was so kind to me whenever I saw him at a coaching clinic. And I wrote to him a couple of times. He always wrote back and he was just always so kind. I loved Eddie. good man. Yeah, he was the type of guy he'd be teaching at a clinic and I'd go up and I'd go coach. Explain this to me. How do I teach this to small, division three kids? And he would pull me aside and he would walk me through it. He would show me how to teach it. Lute also was like that too at Arizona. Lute was a terrific coach. When I first started refereeing in the, big eight and I was at Oklahoma state and, they pointed up in the top of the bleachers, Henry Iba, used to sit up there and watch games. A legendary guy, huh? Henry Iba. Did you ever get to talk to him? Never did. No, I sure wish I had. did you ever officiate Rupp or Wooden or any of those guys? Did you ever, officiate down in Kentucky or Wooden in UCLA? Never had those guys. I'll tell you, I refered, in the NCAA tournament, I refered with a bunch of, pretty big time guys. I didn't work in their conferences, but I refered for Patino. Oh, yeah. And, coach KI, I tell you a quick story about Coach K. so Duke comes to Oklahoma and Oklahoma had won, I think 50 or 51 straight home games and Duke had a great team with Bobby Hurley and Leitner and those guys, this is a big time game and I'm putting a ball in play and I'm on the sideline directly across from the benches. And all of a sudden, one of the big, water coolers fell off the table it was on, and the floor is full of water. So I can see all these managers over there sweeping it up, and I'm just holding the ball, and Leitner, he was an idiot. He says to me, hey, put the ball in play. Come on, says it to me. Hey, put the, so I, in a very stupid response, I said, Hey, you, so he's like a two year old Bobby talking to Hurley Bobby. Did you hear what he just said to me? So I figured I better get this thing cleaned up pretty fast. So I walk over to coach K. And I said, coach K, I said, I just said something to your big player over there that I probably shouldn't have said. I told him what happened, but I decided I just. Give him the same, language that he gave me. He says, let me tell you something. If he looks at you the wrong way, the rest of this game, just come over and tell me I'll bring his ass over here and sit him right on his bench. How about that? they beat Oklahoma. It was a great game and they broke Oklahoma. I think they had won 51 straight home games. but that was cool. That was my experience with coach K. Not bad. that's what you expect from him. But Leighton was a pretty damn good player. Yeah. He was pretty good. and he could be tough, Coach K. I had him a number of times in the NCAA tournament games and he would be a little bit like Wooden. he'd roll that program up and he'd talk you through that program, see? But he was fine. Tell me about Rick. I don't know how many times I had him in the tournament. I never heard anything about officiating from Patino. It was weird. Majerus was about the same way. Majerus would only, when he was at Utah, I had a number of his games out there and Majerus, the only thing he would ever get upset about is if he thought the post play on both ends was getting too rough. He didn't want to see anybody get hurt. Other than that, he never said boo. That's interesting about both of them. But they were always coaching. Those guys were just teachers to the core. That's why they win. You can't spend an entire game officiating from the bench because then you're not coaching your kids and you're giving your kids an excuse for their mistakes. That's right. Oh yeah, that, that really wasn't a foul Bobby, Oh no, you didn't travel. No. The whistle blew. You traveled. Yep. I learned this the hard way you're modeling to them, you can't tell your kids not to yell and complain to talk to the officials when that's all you're ever doing. I refer in a lot of his games, but I can't even remember a player of his who would even think about getting a technical foul, to deal with the wrath. No way. No. Knight's whole thing is, Hey, let me get it. Not you. That's right. That's the way it should be. Coach, I could talk stories with you for hours, but I'm gonna turn directions here because I really want to get your thoughts on this. You and I both talked about, we're losing really great officials and really great coaches that are leaving the game. And, the complaint is parents and the complaint is administration. We can point fingers in a lot of ways. How do we get good young coaches and really good young officials, men and women, how do we get them to step into that environment and stay in it? How do we keep them healthy? how many young males when they go to college these days, Matt, are going into education? Are wanting to become teachers, wanting, and it goes right back to number one, unless you have a tremendous passion to be a teacher or a coach, the incentives not there because you want to raise a family and they're not paying teachers, guys, come on, I've got some grandson and granddaughters who are out of college and they're not in education and they're making some pretty good money to start, So I think we have to recruit. if I was a young person again, and I was a high school coach or teacher. if I saw some young men or women who I thought would really be good in education, who really could communicate well with kids, I think I would encourage him. I would try to help them. I would try to mentor them. I don't know how many people are doing that, Matt. you do a lot of recruiting, help kids get into college. Is that correct? they don't know how exactly they don't know how I find myself at my daughter's volleyball games where I'll see a great freshman coach, a young coach, volleyball coach, or I'll be at a high school game, watching a basketball freshman, sophomore JV, and just love their interaction with the kids. They never stopped teaching. They never stopped coaching. They never stopped, working and I'll go up to him after a game and I go, Hey. I just want, really impressive stuff. Keep, if you love it, just don't let anybody change who you are. Like in Ladoo, Ladoo has, the, financial means to take care of their coaches and whatever, that being said. On the football staff, they had a real good young coach are going to the changing coaches now, but to get assistant coaches, they can't get anybody in the district to do it. They got to go outside. In other words, some guy who works at a restaurant who wants a coach, who's got a background. It's an assistant coach, but that's not what we're looking for. We got to get these young people in the building who are on staff. As a phys ed teacher, and of course, Ledoux was on a merit system then, okay? And it was very, I liked it. You had to coach two sports, period. No negotiating. Now, you could put down what sports you wanted to coach, okay? But if you wanted to be a P. E. teacher in the District of Ledoux. You will be hired as a PE teacher slash coach of two sports. Nowadays, they teach PE. They don't want to coach after school. They go home. So now you got to go find somebody who might be a history teacher over at Marquette. Who's going to coach football with you? Can never understand why principals and superintendents don't make that a point of emphasis. We need a new math teacher. We need to find somebody that, that can coach football or basketball or track and field or softball as well. We want that diversity. Absolutely. Why are we hiring teachers? But why aren't we at least looking for those people that can do multiple jobs? it's just like an officiating. You've got to get some young teachers involved in coaching, right? with the knowledge that, hey, If you do a real good job coaching our freshman boys basketball team, hey, we'll find a way to promote you to a better job. You might love coaching a freshman and you can coach it for the next 25 years. That's right. I wish there was, and maybe there is, maybe you'll tell me there is, but I wish there was some kind of administration that was developing young coaches or a program that was developing. You talk to seniors that are graduating from UMSL, Maryville, Webster, And you sit them all down and just say, Hey, what do you want to do after college? All of them are trying, especially basketball players. They're trying to figure out how can I keep playing? How can I stay connected to the game? We've got an opportunity for you. Let's get you into coaching. Let's get you into officiating. Would you be open to that? It starts probably with your counselors in the high schools. some teachers, male or female, who really have a passion for sports to encourage kids. But if you're in an environment where they don't give a damn about athletics, it's cooked. It is. And it's so important. It's just, it touches so many things in a school district. I, again, I'm so thankful for having you in my life. We got to talk today. I love you and you'll always be one of those people that, whatever I do in my life, you'll always be one of those people. I'll be thankful that I got to spend time with you and got to learn from you. I will say this. I'm humbled by your words and I am thankful that I know you. Coach. Thank you so much. I wish you all the best and I look forward to future conversations, but thanks for doing this today. That wraps up another episode of The Significant Coaching Podcast. A huge thank you to Ron Zetcher for sharing his incredible journey and wisdom with us today. His impact on sports as an athlete, a coach, a teacher, and official is truly remarkable, and I'm personally grateful for the role he played in my own development as a coach and leader, and I'm also grateful for just to have his friendship. If you've enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on your favorite platform. Whether that's Apple, Spotify, Amazon, or iHeartRadio, your support helps us continue bringing valuable insights to athletes, parents, and coaches. And don't forget to visit CoachMattRogers. com for more resources on the college recruiting process and how to take control of your athletic future. Thanks again for tuning in. Until next time, keep working hard, stay focused, and take ownership of your journey. See you in the next episode.