Episode #62: Matt Midkiff

🎙️ Building a Championship Culture with Coach Matt Midkiff

On this episode of Significant Coaching with Matt Rogers, we sit down with Matt Midkiff, the winningest baseball coach in Swarthmore College history and two-time Centennial Conference Champion.

From rebuilding struggling programs to leading his team to the NCAA Division III World Series, Coach Midkiff shares what it really takes to create a winning culture at the college level. We dive into his journey, how he builds trust with his players, and how he balances high-level competition with the academic rigor of an elite institution.

Whether you're a coach, athlete, or parent navigating the recruiting process—or just love a good story about leadership and grit—this one’s for you.

🔥 Don’t miss:

• The inside story of Swarthmore’s historic 2018 season
• How Coach Midkiff recruits difference-makers
• His advice for athletes aiming to play at the next level
• What it takes to sustain success in D3 athletics

💥 Hit play and get inspired by one of the best in the game. And don’t forget to visit coachmattrogers.com for more tools, episodes, and ways to connect.

Transcript

0:15

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Significant Coaching with Matt Rogers. I'm your host. We are the podcast where we dive deep into the stories, strategies, and journeys of coaches who are making a lasting impact on and off the field. This week, I'm pumped up to introduce my guest, Coach Matt Midkiff, the head baseball coach at NCAA Division III. Swarthmore College, a proud member of the Centennial Conference. Coach Midkiff is entering his 12th season leading the Garnet and is the winningest coach in program history with 232 wins, 170 losses, and 2 ties during his tenure, an impressive 577 winning percentage. Under his leadership, Swarthmore has captured two centennial conference championships in 2018 and 2022 and made NCAA tournament appearances in both those years. In 2018, Coach Midkiff led Swarthmore to the best season in school history, including a trip to the NCAA Division III World Series and a final national ranking of number six during that 2018 season, he was also named the Centennial Conference and Mid Atlantic Region Coach of the Year. Coach Midkiff has developed a powerhouse program over the years, coaching 38 all conference players, 15 all region honorees, and three All Americans. Beyond the numbers, he's a builder of culture. He's a mentor of young men, and someone who truly understands the long game as it pertains to college athletics. We're going to talk about what it takes to sustain success in Division 3 baseball, how recruiting has evolved over the years, and how Coach Midkiff helps student athletes grow into competent, capable young adults on and off the diamond. But before we jump into that conversation, a quick reminder, you can find my book, Significant Recruiting, the playbook for prospective college athletes, along with my blog, the Recruiting Launchpad courses, and past podcast episodes, all at coach matt rogers. com. That's coach matt rogers r o g e r s. com. And if you're not already following along, you can connect with me on social media. I'm on Instagram and Facebook at coach Matt Rogers and on Twitter at recruit coach. For you, that's the number four in the letter U. I'd love to hear from you. Alright, let's get into it. Here's my conversation with coach Matt Midkiff of Swarthmore College Baseball. Hey, Coach. Hey, Matt. How are you? Good. Hey, thanks for doing this. Yeah, I know. This is really cool. I'm excited to hop on with you. I really appreciate it, man. I was a college coach a long time and I miss walking across the hall to you and saying, Hey, I got, I'm dealing with this kid. How would you deal with it? Let's talk shop. Let's talk recruiting. So this kind of lets me get some of that basketball, baseball coaching Jones out of my system and I'm having a blast doing it. Yeah, no, it's a, that is one of the. One of the interesting things is, you're, you are all coaches and there are some commonalities, but also there's no other baseball coach I can go to at my school and talk to him. So that's, it is interesting how. We're always trying to beat each other, but we can't get enough of talking to each other and trying to help each other too. So it is, it's an interesting dynamic, but but a lot of fun. I had Scott Winterburn, who's the head coach at university Laverne. He was across the hallway from me for years. And, and I had him on the podcast a couple months ago and it was just like, man, this is the part of coaching I miss. Is talking about kids, talking, coaching, how to get better, and there's so few people that understand what we do. You know what I mean? Oh, it's yeah. Everybody thinks they know they see it from one side. The best is when you have a player. That then transitions to coaching. Oh, now I know why you guys are crazy, and now I know why you're the way you are. It's a little validating when they move to the other side and go, Oh yeah, this is. It makes sense the way you're doing it, even though I questioned everything you did when I was playing. So exactly they don't appreciate the depth of what you're doing every day and how many balls you have in the air and how many responsibilities you have parents don't understand it. And oftentimes the people above you don't understand it because they've never been head coaches. And so it's really cool. It's really cool. What you've been doing. You just, you got done talking about how hard it is to share what we do and to find people that relate. It's so cool when you have a player that is going through that process for the first time and being a head coach and learning that. What are some of the things that you talked to your assistants about? Because I'm sure all your assistants want to be head coaches. Your players, a lot of them want to be head coaches. Are there things that you try and instill in them to get them ready for that journey? Yeah, I think the number one thing is to try to always take a step back and think about the big picture. And oftentimes We are passionate and we're, we want to win. We want to make that decision quickly and really stepping back and thinking through it and thinking through all angles of the decision is more of a head coach mentality. And I think what's great about being an assistant is you can just fire stuff off and. We should do this. We should do this. I like this. I like this guy. I liked it. And you have the freedom to do that. And then when you get in the big chair, you really have to take it all in and listen to all the perspectives and see all the pluses and minuses of it. And oftentimes those decisions might be different from what an assistant coach. would recommend or want you to do, but there's a lot of just, there's a lot of you learn a lot from being patient. You learn a lot from waiting instead of, doing that. I think as anybody that's married knows, that's probably the best way to do it. We try, we probably don't do it, the patients and not being so emotional about it. And we talked to our players about, when they're assessing their performance or something along those lines, try to take the emotions out of it. And let's analyze what the data says and it is what it is, right? You're. You're at bat is what it is. And you might feel sad about your at bat, but that doesn't being sad, doesn't really help us get better. So let's look at what we can use from that at bat to help us move on to the next at bat and be better moving forward. That's right. And you see it. On ESPN talked about year round about NFL quarterbacks, rookie quarterbacks, do we sit them? Do we start them? Do we play them? And they all fail. They all fail that first year, to see what the kid at Washington's doing or the kid at the Texans did last year it's such an anomaly in baseball players that get to the pros and it's rare when you see. Anybody make the pros anymore under 24 years old, it used to be, there'd be that 19 year old that Ken Griffey every year, but you don't see that anymore. A lot of it has to be for those reasons. So it's thick. I do. I think as a society, we've lost our patience to mention the NFL head coach comes in, doesn't win in two years. He's gone high level college sports. Don't win early. You're gone. And most of our greatest coaches that we hold to high esteem did not have it figured out in year one or two or five, right? So that's, I think that's just a sad commentary maybe on where we are and the expectations and What is it we want these young people to get from this experience? And I think we're telling them different things. And that's a tough thing to reconcile as a parent or as a, just as a member of society at large it's so good to hear you say that, cause it's been, that's been a topic so big on my mind. I just spoke at an ad convention a couple of weeks ago, and I wrote a blog on it last week. About we no longer coach our coaches. We hire you based on your resume, and then we assume you know how to recruit, plan a budget, balance a budget, coach your assistants, hire assistants, handle your finances, handle travel, have all the templates made. We just assume you know how to do the 50 things that go on your program. So how do we do that? How do we coach? How do we enable an athletic director or a president? Or a superintendent, a principal. How do we give them the okay to say, coach us, tell us what you think you're seeing, what are we missing, what do I need, how do we do that as a head coach to an assistant coach, I think the person in the position of. Of the mentor needs to just ask a lot of questions. I think we're best as individuals when we get to it on our own. But somebody needs to lead us there. And so I might not know the questions that I need to be asked to look at the things that I need to look at. So I think it's just ask those questions. Let the person get to where they want to be. And it seems to work with players. I think, what did you see there? What did he throw you? What was your plan? And then you figure out this kid's walking up to the plate without much of a plan, or he's changing his plan from pitch to pitch, as opposed to sticking to the plan that we talked about in the scouting report. And once you start to see the light bulb go on. It's okay. What do you have now? What can we learn from your process? Because the process stuff and all the best coaches I listened to are so process oriented and which is so hard as we just talked about in such a, an outcome based position to then sell process. And so as an AD or a principal or somebody in charge of a coach, I think you have to look at what is the process, and that process might be a two, three, four, five year process. But is it moving in the right direction? Is the coach committed to it? Are the players and assistants committed to it? And if they are, the outcome will eventually get there. We didn't have a, we didn't have, we didn't make the conference playoffs until my sixth season, which is the year we ended up going to the World Series. Thankfully, So I think that's one of the career is that R. A. D. saw growth. They saw the players were invested and enjoying their experience and all those kinds of things. And fortunately, I don't have. As much pressure in my position as some might though we're not making or breaking the bottom line for the college, but but you know that it is a significant part of the experience that our student athletes have. And so winning is. Is a big part of that. Everybody would rather win than lose Exactly. It's hard to have a great experience when you're getting your butt kicked all the time. That's right. You know when you go 15 and 29, everybody's nobody's happy with that, but is their growth. Is their kids advancing and getting better? Does it feel healthy? It takes a really great evaluator to understand that difference. And I think that's a big part of where our problem is in sports right now. We've lost so many great coaches. That are just are tired of the portal. They're tired of recruiting. They're tired of this or that tired of the social media tired of it's me. I got to have me, but I got more time, more at bats. So I want to go back to what you said, because I think it's a really great point about the kid that's in the batter box. You've given them a scouting report, right? So they might know. This guy likes to start with a fastball. This guy has struggled the last three games to find the strike zone, whatever that may be, at what point do we take a step back and go, have we taught them how to analyze that sky report? We've given them, are we giving them the tools? To be able to think on their own, even though they have a scouting report in front of them and they know what we're telling them is the usual, the norm, the average, have we taught them how to analyze it on their own and think on their own? I don't think I learned that to my fifth or six years ahead coach. Yeah, totally. And what's funny is that our players are so high academic, they're such thinkers. We oftentimes have to have them think less, right? They try to out think the picture to the point where they're on the opposite end of the scouting report. They think he thinks I think this. So if he thinks I think this, and I think he's going to think that if I think that then, and so it can be paralysis by analysis. A lot of times, you have to try to find that, that optimal zone where. We are taking what's given, but also we need to be able to adjust. I'm looking at this pitch, but he might throw me something different based on what just happened, based on where we are in the game, all those kinds of things, they have to be, they have to be fluid in their thinking, but also have a plan that can give them at least a foundation to start from. And then we can make some micro adjustments as we move through the, a batter through the game. Yeah it's funny. You tell me how this has been for you, but I've always had kids are like, I want more freedom or tell me what to do. And it's, there's never that middle ground, I want the independence, but I want a good sky report. I want to understand how to read this picture. I want to understand how to attack that strike zone, how to see that pitch a little bit longer in the zone. It's getting that a kid to be balanced. Yeah. in their growth. And I'm sure that more with your juniors and seniors than anything else. Absolutely. If you can find a player that's able to do that in their first or second year, then you've got someone special. And we can tell pretty early on if a hitter has command of the strike zone and understands what they're looking for and those kinds of things because that's really the hard part that the hitting part they should be able to do. They're at our level, but the thinking through those things, being able to recognize, I think there's a huge visual cognition piece to hitting. It's not, it's really hard to take somebody who can't recognize certain pitches and make them recognize them. I think it's the way our brain works in conjunction with our eyes. And by no means am I a scientist, but nobody would accuse me of that. But I just think there are guys that can really see pitches well and you, they're off of a pitch that's knocking end up in the zone. They're off of it right away. Or other guys you could throw it to'em a hundred times, tell'em what's coming and they're not gonna be able to do it. It's an amazing sport because of that I don't know if there's anything harder to do in all of sports. Then hit a fastball. or a curveball and not knowing what's coming at you and then try and put a little piece of lumber on that little ball, right? It's incredible. I watch obviously the highest levels and I'm amazed that anyone ever hits a pitch. Just watching what these guys can do on the mound. It's incredible. And I think I've read where They say your brain shouldn't be able to process it that fast, right? These guys are just, they're so good at that. And and the pitchers are so good and the technology is so good and everything has really improved. And we were, we saw it this, this past weekend with with our games and we're talking as coaches. 10 years ago, guys are, most of the guys you're seeing are 82, 84. And we're seeing consistently 88 to 92 at the division three level with a second pitch. Yeah. So it's really, and I think you've got they're different. Different companies that have gotten into the science of pitching. It's very formulaic. If you want to throw harder, these are things that you can do, and it helps you throw harder. Now you'll get the contrary to that, which is, but nobody knows how to pitch anymore, right? So it's a give and take. And we've seen hitters really adjust to that. So even that higher velocity hitters are used to it. They practice it. And so really it's come in full circle where you've got the old school type pitcher who can change speeds and really locate that guy's now at a premium again, where it's cause coaches are tired of watching 96 go to the backstop. So it's funny how these things sort of cycle through and hitters aren't ready to hit that stuff because they don't see it because everybody's throwing, throwing harder. So yeah, it's, it is funny how all these things change and change relatively quickly. And I do think that I think the COVID time period gave pitchers a chance to really focus on themselves and getting to their optimal level. And so the question now becomes, how do you do that within the context of a team practice and developing the team, right? And so there's a lot of stuff that's going into this from the baseball side, that's just really interesting to think about. And a lot of stuff that myself and my coaching colleagues talk about all the time. It's very interesting stuff for me. You hear again, I'll go back to the NFL. They have the quarterback room, the linebacker room, the safety room, the D line room. Do you have a pitchers room? Do you guys do any of that? High level where your older guys could share, coaching staff can share you're watching hitters, watching pitchers together. Do you guys do a lot of that? We like our pitchers to talk a lot. And if you know any pitchers, they just love to talk to each other anyway. And who knows, most of the time it's not about pitching, but it, it does really help when. We're constantly talking about the message and the purpose of what we're trying to do again. Back to that process. Here's, here are the pitches you'll throw. This is what we want them to do. This is what we want the result to be. This pitch isn't very good right now. That one's going to be one we're going to shelf. We're going to focus on these two or three and get really good at these. Because the role that you will have, that's what we'll need from you. And then this other guy might need the other thing. And so they are. I would say in the last four to five years, they are so in tune to what everyone says about pitching, about everybody's perspective, any expert on X or any anywhere else they've got, they're seeing it, they're ingesting it. And so I think that the tough part is as again, in a team setting, how do we keep? Our pitchers doing as much of the same thing as possible, knowing that each guy might need a little something different. Yeah, it's, it, I've been watching they've been doing these interviews with Barry Bonds and Greg Maddox, they'll interview one and they'll interview the other and they're watching the same clips from 20 years ago. I'm just amazed coach that Greg Maddox could tell you the pitch he threw, why he threw it 20 years later and bonds is going, I know what's coming here. I've already seen him do this a hundred different times. I know he's not going to pitch me inside cause he knows he'll, he knows I'll take it out. So Maddox pulls his catcher out and goes. We're going to throw this one inside and catcher goes, you told me to never call a pitch inside to Barry Ponce. He goes just call it. It's coming inside. I just want you to know. Bond sits it out. Three months later, bonds comes up to the plate in the playoffs against Maddox and Maddox has his brain set up. Maddox is already thinking three months ahead that we might see these guys in the playoffs and sets that inside pitch up to throw it outside and strike them out. It's amazing where you look at that D three freshmen. And you look at a guy, Hall of Famers, like bonds and Maddox, how their brains can function, what we can do as a human being, when we're talking about 90 mile an hour, fastballs, when we're talking about a hundred mile an hour, fastballs, how that brain can develop, can we get kids there? Can we teach them how to be. That type of thinker. I think we can get them on the road to doing that. That's one advantage. I tell our guys you're as smart as they come. This is, and I always joke with them is, I say they tell me you're as smart as they come because the common sense piece isn't, doesn't necessarily match the SAT score. So there are a lot of, there are a lot of fun that way. And it gives me a slight advantage because I could operate in life and they have trouble sometimes there, but they could land a space shuttle and I wouldn't even be able to get in the building. So I think our guys want to be able to do those kinds of things. Their age probably doesn't allow for that long term thinking as much but when we go over a plan and we say, this is what we're going to try to accomplish, they really get it and they understand it. I think where Maddox is separated obviously is he knows every time he throws it, it will end up exactly where he wants it. It comes down to that, doesn't it? So if we can get, if we can get that part first, Then I think it's, it'd be way easier to get them to be able to think along those lines, but really the, we try to simplify it because our guys will maybe go to the nth degree. And I'm sure there are coaches that try to do it a little bit differently. Where some guys might need a little more of that from the coaching staff. But it's a lot of fun coaching high academic guys because they are always thinking, they always have questions. And it really keeps you on your toes as a coach because they will absolutely ask you that question. That's right. They will. It's, I remember the first time my team went to the national tournament. I was like, it was like year four or five for me as a head coach. And I was like, I got it. I figured it out. I understand how to do this. Next year we go 11 and 17, we get our butts kicked and our best player gets hurt and I just, I have no solution, and I realized I know nothing. I know nothing as a coach outside of, I've got a lot of work to do and I still have to, I have to get better. Have you gone through those cycles in your years? Absolutely. I, and we had a great year in 2018 returned basically the entire team in 2019 and had some amazing wins out of conference we're winning, national level games, and then in conference, we found a way to lose. enough to miss the conference playoffs. And what's funny is our basketball coach, Landry Kuzmowski, who's done an amazing job at Swarthmore with the basketball program. He told me the next year is really hard. Expect everything to go against you. Everything that went for you to get there because it is, it's. And once you've seen it, and then you see how the other years play out, you go back and realize how much had to go right for us to get where we were, right? And so he said, it's going to go against you guys are going to hit balls. They shouldn't, things are going to, your guys are going to miss pitches. They shouldn't miss. And he said, it's just, you have to be prepared for that. And as much as I tried and wanted to be and warned the team, Hey, this could be tough. This there's, I don't know how you do it. I wish I had an answer, but I don't know how you guard against those things and keep your team so insulated and focused on the day to day. That's, I think the, I think that's how you have to do it. So it's really hard and especially I can't imagine at these higher levels too, where it's always in your face and people are always asking you questions and everywhere you turn there's a, Hey, this is what you did. You were great. You were great. What's happening and that's gotta be really tough to keep the guys focused on just every rep that they're doing in practice or in the weight room. And then, we'll let the chips fall where they may. What those people don't know is that Jimmy's girlfriend broke up with him. Todd failed two tests in a row that he won't, that he needed to get A's on. Danny, Danny's grandpa's been sick. They don't know any of that. They don't know what you're dealing with from an emotional side and a cultural side every day. And those things change. every 10 seconds. There's something new that's getting thrown at you at these kids. Yeah, I think one thing people don't realize, parents don't realize is there's, everybody's always wanting something from you as the coach. And it's not, it's just, it is the job but it's always, and obviously you have family considerations into that. You add, you're part of an athletic department. So there's things that you need to do there. Somebody's texting about coach this, I'm sick. I have this meeting with a professor, what do you think about my outing? There's all these different things that are always coming at you. And what I think the difficulty in being a coach, and I wouldn't never want to do anything else, so I'll say that, but the difficulty is that people are always taking withdrawals from you. You don't get a ton of deposits, right? Exactly. So it's really hard to refill. And I don't know. I think there's, there are probably coaches who can take a vacation, but I haven't really met one. I haven't met one. Yeah.'cause it, because it is even at our level, and again, I can't imagine at some of those other levels, but even at our level, it never stops. There's always a recruit to talk to. There's always something fundraising going on or something with a player and summer ball or whatever it happens to be so there's a lot that is pulled out of you and you also again I have children and a wife and family obligations and you want to do things in the community and So there's a lot that is pulled from you. And so I think any parents of players or administrators, a little bit goes a long way when supporting a coach, saying, hey, you're doing a great job. Or I saw you out there, helping that kid by yourself, one on one, that's really awesome. That means, I think, a lot to coaches, because we never, we're always giving. The praise and the admiration and the attaboys, but yeah, it doesn't really come to us that much. Yeah. I, my, my daughter plays club volleyball and I find myself after games, the coach will walk by and I go, good job coach. I, you're just doing a masterful job of herding cats. Just reminding them that there's somebody out there that's acknowledging that he's dealing with 15 year old girls who have a ton of talent and are more concerned about the tick tock they did right before the game of the tick tock they did right after the game. I don't, I never needed anybody to tell me I was doing a good job, but I always appreciated, like you just said, somebody said, Hey, With what you had to deal with. It looks like you got five guys on the bench and street clubs. It looks like they're all pretty important players. The fact that you were in this game three to two, and you didn't have five of your best kids, those are nice compliments. Those are things that people are appreciating just a piece of what you're having to deal with, right? Yeah. And I think that reminds us too, as coaches that every player on our roster. wants that from us. You want to be acknowledged. And so as many touch points as you can have with the players and it's hard during class, they're coming late, they're leaving early, they're doing all these things, but as many touch points as you can have that might not even be athletic related, but just something about, Oh, you're, neuroscience class. That sounds pretty cool. And you could explain it to me, and I won't understand it, but I'd love to hear you try to explain it to me, it's just, I think, as people, the acknowledgement is something that we want, and again, like you said, I never felt I don't need anybody to tell me that. But if I'm speaking, and you have administrators that listen to the podcast and administrator saying, I saw you, I acknowledge you just looks like you're doing the right things. I talked to so and so's parents having a great experience. Those are things that. That day we probably had 10 things that were wrong or negative or bad that we had to deal with. Getting that one back is it's like when you're playing golf and you hit the one good shot and it brings you come, brings you back to the, like, all right, let's go. That's I'm going to do that again next time. I think those things can help. You went from wanting to throw your clubs in the pod to, I'm going to buy me a better set. That's how quickly your, our brains work. Exactly. It's so funny. You talk about things that. That are non baseball that we're trying to get these kids to understand and the growth mindset and the patients, families hire me to get their kid recruited, and I love that. But I tell them, I'm going to help you with this journey. I'm going to make the journey a lot easier just because I've done this a long time and I've been a coach a long time. But I go, you're really hiring me and you need to understand this before we even talk about an investment into me. You're hiring me to be your kids mentor. You're hiring me to teach them how to be prepared for the journey they're going to go through, let alone their sport, because if I can get them to understand who they are, really get them to understand their self worth and their value as a human being and get them comfortable talking to a great coach like you on the phone or over zoom. That's my victory. that I've helped them figure out who they are. And I think if I ever go back and take over a college program again, I'm going to be so much better because that's my mindset now, it was always, how do I get them ready to compete against Swarthmore instead of how do I get them ready to handle everything that's going to be thrown at them so they don't crumble when a bad day happens? Am I wrong? You're not wrong at all. I think a lot of these, a lot of these things that we can teach them are lifelong lessons. And that's really what I feel like a coach does is we sort of plant seeds. Sometimes we're not around to see when the tree is completely grown, right? They may think back to that thing 10 years ago that you told them or the experience that they had in college and the things that they had to overcome, the time you benched them that they had to overcome. And maybe they think that was the best thing for me. The best thing for me was that this bad thing happened and I got through it and I'm okay. And now I realize. If another bad thing happens, I can get through it and I can be okay. Yeah. And coach Midkiff was there through the good and the bad. He never left my side. Right. 12 years later, I'm in my thirties and I know I can still call coach and he's going to have advice for me. He's going to have support for me. A hundred percent. And that's a great thing. What we do. That's what is so great about it is that you are investing in people and being in a people business is. I think the coolest, because you could make widgets, you can, make apps or whatever people do, but people that invest in other people. And so if you talk about John Wooden, or you talk about any of these great coaches, your legacy is the people that they. mentored, who then mentored others and mentored others. And so it just goes on and coach Wooden's not around to see it, but it still lives on because of him. And that's a really cool thing to just think about. I could be impacting people for many years to come if I'm, hopefully I'm doing it right, and we all questioned that, but if we, I think if we put the people first and we talk about this and in recruiting is, get the right kid over the best kid. And so that kid that we can pour into, we can invest in that will reciprocate and want to pour back into the program and give back to us too. And when you learn that, I think you've really got something, whether it's in coaching or. just in everyday life. I think it's really important. Yeah, coaches don't like to think about their legacy the way the community wants to talk about it. You're, I could probably look at your phone list, how many of your alums you've talked to in the last three months and how many weddings you've been to and how many graduation pictures you have of you and your guys, and that's your legacy that, it's not how many world series did you go to? How many conference championships, how many young men did you impact and still count on you today? Yeah. Yeah. It's. Always. We just saw some this past weekend. And it's just really those memories come back immediately of when you were in it together. And then you see him and they have, like you said, a job and they're married and they're they're coaching maybe a youth team or they're invested in a program in their community. And you go, man, these this kid's awesome. And I'm just really fortunate to it. I think all of our players are just incredible people, and they come from incredible families, and they come in, I think, already in a really good spot, most of them, but I know there are things that we can teach them, through the adversity, through, a lot of our kids maybe have never gotten a B, and the first time that happens, that's a jarring experience for someone And so I got it out of the way early, but some people, waited later in life to do that, but they, they have to overcome that. And Hey, guess what? We have a game today. You have to perform, you have to be ready to go. Just like in life, there might be something that happens that you have to put to the side and focus on whatever it is that you need to accomplish. Put that frustration, put that anxiety put that into your, put that into your effort today, get some of that out of your system, use, use that bad energy and turn it into something good. So I love it. I coach it's obvious to me why you've done so well. It's such a hard school to recruit to. And I want to get into that because you're at a very prestigious school. If people don't know, I want to give you a chance to really talk about your school and why it is considered one of the top academic schools in the country. And there's nothing harder than recruiting to those type of schools. So I'm really interested to hear what your philosophy has been on growing your. Your program, building the roster every year because you can't go out and just get a kid with a 21 2. 8 who throws 90 mile an hour and get him in the door. Even if he gets him, you can admit him. Is he going to be able to handle the curriculum? Is mom and dad going to be able to afford the bottom line? So I'm really interested in your philosophy on recruiting and some of those things you share about your college and why the price matches the value. Absolutely. So Swarthmore is what? Many describe as a little ivy. So we're a small liberal arts school. We're just outside of Philadelphia. And we also have engineering, which is a nice piece to have for a liberal arts school. Fair. Yeah. Yeah. They're, we're always ranked in the top, two to three to four in any of the, the assessments of colleges and universities for liberal arts colleges. So really, it's a, it's one of the best educations in the world. Low acceptance rate, all those things that, that matter to, to some people. But, it's, what I tell people is that, they're surprised that we have a pool of kids that can actually Get in and that can play. And I respond with our country's in pretty good shape because there are a lot of kids out there who are doing really well and are really bright kids and they work hard and they have this other thing, which is baseball and they work hard at that. And so it actually is really affirming to me to meet these kids on a regular basis around the country, knowing. There are a lot of really talented, good people who want to come play at our school or any of the other high academic schools. And we all have full rosters. We could all find enough. So that's really when it comes down to it. We're looking for kids who have the grades, who have the test scores, but also They do something else. They have a focus on their community. They have a focus on some other interests that they make someone else's life better. And somehow they have time to do this. And I'm so impressed when I see these kids that how much they're doing. Oh, I started, I started this company or I wrote this book and they're still in high school. And it's just. It's incredible to see who these kids are. As we're going around the country looking for these kids, we look for kids that, number one, we think, like you mentioned, that can handle it. Because it is hard. And we tell them, this is the hardest thing you're ever going to have to do. You're going to have to play baseball. You're going to have to lift. You're going to have to train on your own outside of practice. Also, your course load will be really hard. You're not taking, you're not taking easy stuff. You're taking hard stuff. Everything we have at Swarthmore is difficult. So you're challenging yourself every single day, and then you have to come down to the baseball field or to practice or to the weight room and give all of this again. So you're, emotionally it's tough. And so as we're looking in the recruiting process, we're looking for the kids who can handle it but one thing I love is to find a kid who has a great sense of humor. And can have a conversation and it's real because it's also, there are kids who are too polished as well. Let's say, are you reading off a script? It's a feel that you get when you have done this for a long time, being able to see the genuineness in someone and in this recruiting process. And so really we're trying to read people. in this process. The baseball part generally takes care of itself, but I could promise you many of our best players. What turned out to be our best players were not our highest talented recruits. They it's really the grit factor is real. The, going through roadblocks and having disappointments early in life. is the absolute best thing that can happen to someone. And that to me is something we look for that this kid wasn't always the best player on his team. He got cut as a 13 year old from the freshman team or whatever it happens to be. Those are defining moments. And it tells a lot about somebody, how they respond to that. The fact that they're still playing and they're still competing and that maybe they drove an hour and a half to find a team to play on just to keep playing. That says a lot about somebody and how they can handle their business in college. You're seeing it more and more when I'm working with businesses. They're asking applicants that question. Talk about a time where you struggled or had to overcome something. I think it's a great question to talk to recruits about because they need to understand we're not looking for flaws. We're looking to see if you have the ability to deal with flaws. Can you handle it? If you go over 12 in four games, can you handle it? If you give up eight runs in the sixth inning against the number two team in the conference, can you handle it? If you fail a test, your girlfriend makes up for you. We're trying to figure that stuff out and trying to figure out what do I got to teach you when you get here? And what can I be confident? That you're going to be able to do on your own. You're already ahead of the game. Is that something you're thinking about? Yeah, it's, it is so refreshing. If a recruit says, you know what coach my sophomore year, I was an absolute disaster. I could not get my stuff together. My assignments were late, I couldn't hit water. If I fell out of a boat, it just was not a good year for me, but I put this plan in place for myself. This is how I did it. I asked for help, right? That's something that, as up until recently, I didn't think much about, but for especially for guys, we don't ask for help, right? So if I know there's a player who is willing to seek out my help, our staff's help, services that we have at the college that says a lot about who that person is. And it makes them stronger, not weaker, which is, we look at if you ask for help, you're weaker, but it makes them much stronger. And we know that they'll be able to manage their problems as opposed to hide their problems. And then, it's something bad could happen. I was working with a kid the other day on this, on just this very idea. And the kid goes, man, I'm just, I'm so nervous to talk to a college coach and I go, we'll own it. If you're going to call coach Midkiff and tell me you want them to recruit you, don't be afraid to say right in the beginning of the conversation, Hey coach, if I get a little quiet during this call, or I take a little time, I'm just letting you know, I get real nervous when I don't know people when I don't, when I don't know them well, so don't take it. I'm not excited. Don't take, I'm not passionate. Don't think I'm not excited about your school. Just, I'm real nervous talking to you. What does that do for you when you hear a kid own up to the, who they are and take ownership over who they are? What they're dealing with. It shows that they have good insight into who they are and can appreciate that they have weaknesses because I'm sure they're not going to bat 1000 or throw every pitch 100 miles an hour. Right off the bat, I know they're willing to admit that I have this weakness, and I'm working on it. And I just wanted to let you know upfront, I might be a little socially awkward. When you're working in high academics. You get sometimes some kids that are socially awkward. That's for sure. And our guys own it and they have fun with it and they joke about it. That, hey coach, you got some stuff to deal with here. We're not all, we're not all polished. We don't always, we don't always say the thing that should be said or do the thing that should be done. I actually it's refreshing for me too because, it's like when you're You watching somebody walk and they do the, and then they trip and then they do the little jog for about 10 feet, as if they intended to just do a 10 foot jog and then continue walking. And those are the kinds of things that I just. I love that. That's and when I do it, I laugh at myself because it's one of those things, it's so funny. And it's just, and everybody knows what I'm talking about. We've seen that person do that. And you're like I know they weren't talking, but they thought they covered it up, right? As people, we just tend to want to cover up the things that we think are negatives. But as you said, it's just it's so refreshing and it should be empowering for an individual. To say, this is who I am, coach. Because if I pick him, then he knows I'm taking him flaws and all. It's a great relationship. It's a great relationship. Great way to start the relationship. Exactly. And I have'em too. And I'll tell the players, what my flaws are, the things that I don't think I'm as good as a coach as I should be, and that our coaches are always working to get better. And we want their input. What did you like about this practice? What did you not like about this practice? Are you getting enough of what you need to be a better player? I think, my first year I would have never asked that. Or maybe my first five years I would have said, this is the practice, this is what we're doing, I know what's best. But as you get older, you realize how little you actually know. And it's, you've got a bunch of people that all are trying to do the same thing and they all have, Hey, we all have that opinion. If we're all sharing the growth of that, it's only going to get better. But I love the ownership that you're talking about because for me it also, it's a great statement from a recruit. that I'm going to be honest with you. So coach, when you ask me if my shoulder's hurting or my elbow's hurting and I go, ah, it's nothing. Now I'm worried. Now I'm worried is your elbow hurting? Am I going to lose you for the next 18 months? Because you won't tell me it's hurt and we're not doing the treatment or giving you the rest you need. So I love it when a kid's honest on the phone, right out of the gates. Cause then I start going, okay. This is a kid that's going to be honest with me all the time that, or at least I can, hopefully that they're setting that precedent. Absolutely. And as you said, it starts in recruiting and the worst thing that can happen I think is that one of the two parties or both don't understand what they're agreeing to. That's right. So if the family thinks it's going to look like this. My kid's gonna come in, he's gonna start, this is what the coach told me, he has, he's gonna have no problem as a freshman stepping in and starting, and then he doesn't. Now those expectations are, have not been met, and so the coach is the bad guy at that point. As long as the coach didn't say that, then the family is in the player, they're kinda in the wrong. But if the coach said, Oh, yeah, you're going to start, you're going to be my guy. And then, if Mike Trout walks in, am I going to not play Mike Trout, right? So I'm not going to promise you anything but an opportunity and my best effort. That's right. And in return, I expect your best effort, right? And so if those things are aligned. I think families really, they feel more comfortable and there's not that everybody's talked to a family that hates the coach that recruited their kid and this guy transferred here. And so I just think that it needs to be like a contract and that both sides understand what are we what's our purpose here. What am I giving to you? What are you giving to me? And then everybody can say, Hey, we, we both lived up to our end of the agreement. And it ends up being a fantastic four years, whether that turns into a starting spot or a championship or whatever. It doesn't matter because everybody understands that they got what they went into the to the process to get. Yeah, your job is to put the best team on the field. So that might be you. That might be you learning for a year. That might be you playing a part time role. That might be you. Spending this year getting stronger and faster and really understanding pitches and really listening and really diving into the coaching we're giving you and how quickly you grab all that and grasp it is how that role increases. I love that you're almost giving families a range saying this is what it could be, yeah, you might come in. We've got an all American third baseman. We've got two all conference shortstop to second baseman. So you want their, their at bats, you got to come in and really earn it. And they've proven it right. So we want you, but there's a process here. There's a timeline that you might have to go through. Is that the way it needs to be? I think so. And I think everybody. We all think that we're going to step in and be the starter, right? It doesn't matter who's there. And that's really, I don't want somebody that says, you know what? I'm fine with being a backup, right? I'm going to come in. I'm going to win that job coach. Awesome. What if you don't? That's right. What's your mindset if you don't? And if the answer is I'm going to work until I do, let's go. That's right. I'll take 50 of you. Let's go. That's right. But if it's I'm, I'm going to win that job. Okay. You better, because I think you're going to be highly disappointed if you don't. And then the sulking. Comes into play and I also think kids don't realize the difference in physicality and especially now an 18 year old and you could be playing against 23, 24 year olds, right? That's a huge difference. I didn't have to coach through COVID, but to be 18 and you got a 24 year old on the mound and I can't even imagine how hard that is for that kid. Yeah and like we said, everything's got gone up because I think a lot of kids have seen the importance of the weight room and different training techniques and things that can make them metrically better. But it's, we're a traditional four year institution, so we don't have grad school, we don't have 50 years. And so now with the landscape, we're competing at schools that do, which means If I have to choose between a kid who's a little more physical, but maybe doesn't have the skills quite yet. I might go in that direction because I only get four years, whereas some of these other kids maybe are fifth or six years. And so these are things that we do think about, even though the portal doesn't necessarily directly impact us at our school can impact. how we formulate our roster and go compete with other schools. That's right. All right, coach. I could talk philosophy stuff with you all day long. But I've got to get some hardcore baseball in with you. Cause I just, I want to share your wisdom on this. What are just. Maybe one or two characteristics that are non negotiables for you when you're recruiting. Are there things that anybody, if you want to break it into hitters and pitchers, fine. But are there some things that you just, you've got to see, you've got to hear in a recruit before you'll pull the trigger to make an offer? Yeah, I really think effort has to be a non negotiable. And I heard a coach say this and I, I should preface this by saying anything I've ever learned, I've stolen from somebody else, just like most of us, right? But it's, he said, I'm not here to coach your effort. And I think that, especially at schools where the academics are going to be draining in your day. That has to be internal. Your effort has to be self made and you have to want to do the extra. The other thing is competitiveness. If we're watching somebody at a showcase, I want a little bit of fire if they strike somebody out. I want when that kid hits a double, a little bit of a fist pump. Now the double celebrations have gotten a little out of hand, but that's the old school me coming out. it's fun. We'll say it's fun. But but I want to see that even in this showcase game that really doesn't matter, you're competing, or if you're at one of our showcase camps on our campus, that you're competing, you're trying to win, and you're high fiving teammates. I was just with an alum the other day who played third base for us on our World Series team, and the reason I picked him, we had a showcase At our school, a camp and that, I think it was a no, no hitter for both sides. It was that, and the pitching wasn't very good. It was just a bad day. I picked him. I said, I want this kid because he was the only one that sprinted to his position every time. He didn't show that great. He did not look like player. But I said, that's I want in my program. And a few years, he's an amaz at the D three level. And he's crushing it in h world and doing great. So stuff translates and w if a family is a family or a players watching this, we watch everything and we evaluate everything and the way you treat your parents, we watch that very, because if mom's carrying your bag or you're giving her lip, because, she said, honey, I think you did great. And you said, no, I didn't do that. We don't want that kid. We want, you're, that's the closest relationship that we can evaluate as you and your parents. And if you're not treating your parents with respect, then I'm just some guy that coaches baseball. How are you going to treat me? I it's such a good point. And I hear it from almost every coach I talked to. And I, it's one of the things I always talk about, but I've got to talk to my daughter about it because we have such a fun relationship together that I think if a college coach was watching her, they would quickly misperceive. the goofiness and how we tease each other for disrespect, and I don't think kids understand that like you said before, there's always somebody watching and you're watching everything. You might get to that game 30 minutes early just to see BP and how they handle themselves in the dugout. No question about it. We love to see. When things go poorly for the player that's when it really becomes obvious who they are. Exactly. I, it's, I'm sure every coach you talk to will say this, I'd rather see a guy strike out three times that I know he can play, but see him strike out three times and see who is he. Yeah. And they talk about, they talked about Tony Gwynn and he was a guy that if he was 0 for 4 or 4 for 4, you couldn't tell the difference. You're talking about arguably the greatest hitter of all time. So all, I think those lessons are so important for kids to understand that there it's not, if something bad will happen, it's when, and they really, the only thing that matters is how do I respond to that adversity, to that situation when it happens, because. You're going to get another chance. That's what's great about baseball. If you left the bases loaded in the sixth, guess what? You might come up in the ninth with a chance to win the game. And I need you to not worry about what just happened to be everything you can be in that moment and go get the job done at that point. What's next is all that matters. Yeah. Next, the next at bat, the next pitch, that's all that matters. What's one piece of advice you give to parents? You just gave, hopefully families that are listed as parents, student athletes that are listed as, heard what you just said as advice to an athlete that's going through the recruiting process. It's great advice. What advice do you give to parents and student athletes that want to get recruited? And are just starting and just don't know what to do to get somebody like you to pay attention to that. I think that the starting point has to be to get information from somebody who has been through it and who understands what the process is. I think a lot of information happens in the stands at games lot of it, right? And so I always, when I talk to families about the recruiting process, I always liken it to when you buy your first house. And you go through this process and you learn all these things. And then at the end, you have this house. That you probably wouldn't have bought had you known all the things that you found out along the way and I think we're seeing so many transfers and so many unhappy families and kids. I think it's because they're not guided by somebody who understands what they're doing in this process and understands what coaches are looking for, understands, what things should be important to me in this decision. And generally it's what is my Twitter announcement going to look like? What is, so these things that. that don't matter. And again, I was, make relationship analogies. But I'll say I want the big wedding, but I'm not really worried about the marriage. And so we have to make sure we're making that decision on all the things that are really core values for our family. And of course, everybody wants to play, go somewhere where the coaches and the players and everybody will be excited for you to be there. right? Where when you say, coach, I'm coming to your school. You hear a, yes, let's go. I'm excited. I can't, I'm so happy you're coming to my school. That's how you know you picked the right place. Yes. That the coach is pumped to have you as opposed to. answer my call coach. I'm to come play for you and back for a month. That sh So I just think as a f of these, most of these f have gotten to where they are and they've raised great kids because they have good intuition and they know what they're doing. And then when it gets to this process, people lose their minds and they don't, they act like they, they don't understand anything. They don't know that coach doesn't seem like a good guy. Or that this coach would absolutely take care of my son if anything happened. That's right. Those are things that we make those judgments every day, but this process, we throw those things out the window. I'd say, trust themselves in this process. Trust your gut. When you have this these interactions and Help your son or daughter understand and read the tea leaves of what this kind of means when I get this message back or I get this message back or I don't get a message back. That's right. Yeah. What's it going to be like when you go there, if it takes four weeks to return a phone call? What's it mean when you ask for something that you're passionate about, or nervous about, and they give you a one sentence answer, or don't worry about it, those things are valuable. Those things are, you have to listen to those things. All right, coach, one piece of significant advice that maybe you've gotten over the years that you find yourself sharing with others, and it doesn't have to be anything to do with baseball or sports or recruiting. Is there just something that you think our audience can learn from? Yeah, I have. I have a couple. So the first one I would say is be comfortable in who you are. Be comfortable in talking to people. Take a public speaking class. Do something out of your comfort zone. Be able to have a discussion with someone. I think the way we talk to people, being able to have that discussion in an interview or in any sort of situation is important. Invaluable. It really is. It helps. It helps you. It helps you get that job. It helps you be invited to that that golf outing. It really helps you to just meet people and be able to interact. And if you can do that, a lot of maybe you're the things that you're just not as, as talented in, in certain things, whether it's academically or physically it, the way you interact with people really can I have to edit this out. The way you interact with people can overcome a lot of your misgivings. It can really put you in better, in a better position to to be successful really. It's how you speak to people. And then that kind of goes into the second one, which is. invest in people, care about people know things about them, or just care enough to ask. And if you're able to do that, it really opens that person up to having a good interaction with you. And I think You know, I've never thought of myself as the smartest person out there. Not even close. Not the most talented baseball player or coach or anything along those lines. But my parents definitely raised me to respect people and to be kind to people. And I think those things sometimes are missing and respect and kindness can definitely go a long way and and help you overcome any sort of like Florida public schools like I was raised in. But, and I think again, just try to not take yourself too seriously. It's, my job I take seriously, but I don't take myself seriously. And I think our players would say that I might be. the least mature person on our, in our program. Because I always, I want them to have fun. I want to have fun. I'd sell insurance if I didn't want to have a good time. No, let's say that you just stay coach of baseball. No, no offense to insurance salesman, but I just I do it because I love it and I think coaches. They coach because they love it and we all get into it because we love it. And, I think sometimes the system can change those things, unfortunately. But I think we as coaches try to make it as pure as possible and keep it about the players and keep it about the families. And if we do that, then I think we'll continue to thrive in college athletics and in high school athletics and make people feel good and enjoy their athletic experiences, which ultimately is what we've. Set out to do. Yeah. It comes down to the golden rule. Treat others as you wanna be treated. And it's amazing how far that can stretch when it's, when it, when the, when kids and adults live by that and how attracted you are to them when they're recruits that you can see that. Totally. And I want players who can joke with me can, laugh it off because it is. It can get stressful. The eighth day of a game that's tied in conference is stressful. The, coming down from a, an exam is stressful. These things are stressful. So we should, we're going to be together a lot. We should be able to have fun together. You shouldn't marry somebody that you can't laugh with. That's right. And so this is a relationship. It's something that is, You're tied to this person with this decision forever, and you may only be together for four years, but the decision lasts for a lifetime, so making sure that you make that right call and that the person that you're turning your child over to is invested in helping raise them and helping instill values in them is very important and way more important than Are the uniforms awesome? And what does the locker room look like? That's right. That's right, coach. I would send my kids to play for you in a heartbeat and so impressed with you and all you've done and all you continue to do and the care that you put in to raising these young people. And I hope you don't mind if I call you a friend from here on out because absolutely we'll be honored man. I've enjoyed every second of this and I look forward to future calls. So good luck the rest of the season. I know you guys will give everybody hell and nobody's going to want to see you as you walk down on the field, but we'll be cheering for you. Thanks for doing this coach. Thanks man. I appreciate you having me. And that's a wrap on today's episode of Significant Coaching. A big thanks again to Coach Matt Midkiff for sharing his insight, his awesome experience, and his great wisdom from the world of college baseball. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to give us a five star rating and leave a quick review. It really helps more coaches, athletes, and families. Discover the show and don't forget if you're looking for resources to support your recruiting journey Or you'd like to bring me in to speak at your school your team or your organization head over to coach Matt Rogers calm You'll find my book significant recruiting my blog the recruiting launchpad and info on how to get in touch And I always encourage you to sign up for our weekly newsletter where you'll get my weekly blog and get updates that not everybody gets to see in here. Thanks again for listening, and as always keep showing up, keep leading, and keep chasing significance.