Episode #86: Chris Bunch

Brotherhood, Basketball & Building Men – A Coaching Conversation with Chris Bunch

Description:
In this episode of Significant Coaching, I sit down with one of my great friends in the world of college sports—Coach Chris Bunch, Head Men's Basketball Coach at Webster University. Chris and I started our college coaching journeys nearly 25 years ago in the St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference, where our teams had epic battles and an instant respect was formed.

This conversation is personal. It’s real. And it’s packed with wisdom.

We talk about the evolution of coaching, the pressure and privilege of leading young men, and the legacy we hope to leave behind. Chris is one of the most loyal, generous, and thoughtful leaders I know—on and off the court. He also wrote the Coach’s Perspective for Chapter 8 of my book Significant Recruiting, and I’m incredibly thankful for his voice in this space.

Whether you're a coach, parent, or athlete, this episode will remind you why relationships matter more than records—and why coaching with heart still wins.

🎧 Subscribe and listen now.
 🔗 Learn more or grab your copy of Significant Recruiting at CoachMattRogers.com

Transcript

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in our individual meetings at the end of the year, I always say this. I say, Hey, we both got a job to do here. My job is to recruit somebody better than you your job is to work hard enough and get better enough that I can't do that. And if we both do our jobs, we're gonna have one heck of a good time here. Welcome back to another episode of Significant Coaching. I'm your host, Matt Rogers. Today's episode is a special one, and I mean that from the Heart Coach Chris Bunch, and I started our college coaching journeys nearly 25 years ago in the St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. The Slack Coach Bunch was at Webster University where he is been for the last 24 years, and I was at Maryville University of St. Louis. Our teams had some epic battles over the years, but what I remember most is the mutual respect we had for each other, our programs, and the way we approached the game. This conversation, it's personal, it's joyful, and honestly it's a little selfish it because you'll hear the pure joy in my voice getting to talk coaching and hoops with one of my great friends in the world of college sports. If you could pick someone to have in your corner, whether it's a friend or a big brother, Chris Bunch, is that guy, kind, loyal, generous, and on top of that, one of the best leaders of young men and the sharpest tacticians of basketball. I know I. Chris also played a big role in my book, significant Recruiting, writing the coach's perspective for Chapter eight. I'm so thankful for his wisdom, his generosity, and his belief in helping young people navigate this world the right way. So settle in. You're about to hear from a man who not only knows how to win on the court, but who's made a lasting impact for hundreds of young people off the court. Let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Coach Chris Budge. Coach Bunch. It's always great to see you. I miss our conversations a ton and it's great following your team. I wanna talk about small college basketball with you. Okay. Where's it at? Where's it at? 25 years ago we started in the Sly Act together. Where is Division three basketball at today? What's changed in 25 years? I, ugh I think, oddly you asked me this last week, I was at the Tennessee Basketball Coaches Association had a team camp in Nashville, and I went and saw Raul Pius, who's, who was the guy that replaced Randy Lambert at Maryville College where I was at before I came here. 20, yeah. Is this my, this year? 24 now? Yeah, 24 years ago. And he and I were talking and we were just talking about that very thing. It has changed a lot. Our league has changed a lot. I don't sometimes think about it because I'm in it, and so I'm just doing it. And then, but like other people will say, Mike Senior, who's. Started helping me again the last couple of years and was helping me my first nine years. When you, when I at Maryville here in St. Louis he talks about our league and how different it is, how much more athletic it is, how much more, he thinks it's better. And I don't necessarily think the players, all these guys I coached 20 years ago couldn't play and now my players are better. I don't know that's the case, but it's different. The style of play is different. Obviously Greenville being our league and running the system has changed, people have had to counter punch to try and have to be able to play them, and and I think just the whole analytics. Everybody's got access to analytics. Now. I can pull up stuff on Synergy and see all this stuff more than I don't use it. Yeah, exactly. Me, it has changed. Now everybody's shooting, get to the rim or shoot threes and cut out the mid-range and all of that. And so it's, it has changed. I think even it's trickled, it has trickled down to our level, that aspect of it. I do think maybe the biggest change in the, I've seen in the last 2, 3, 4 years is the difference in who people are recruiting. For example, and I was talking about that with coach laces at Maryville College last weekend. He said. I said, I don't, I used to know who to go after. I'd go to a U tournament or a high school team camp and you'd watch a game and this guy would be scoring 27 and you'd be like, yeah, I know I can't get that guy. What about this guy or this guy? And you're trying to figure out who, who was good enough to help you, but it wasn't so good that all the scholarship people would be all over'em. Now, I don't know if, I know many times who that is because the division one and division two schools aren't recruiting high school kids other than the creme de la creme of high school kids. And so I'm seeing more kids that I thought five, 10 years ago I can't get that kid. And now maybe I can get that kid because he don't, he doesn't have as much stuff going on, and I think that has changed a little bit too. I think that, I think it's, I think it's tougher for high school kids because they're sitting around waiting for that scholarship offer to come and. Yeah, they're not recruiting an 18-year-old. They're wanting a 22-year-old or a bounce back from a division one, if they're division two or a division two. If they're division three or NAI or whatever. And then there's the JUCO aspect of it. It's, I think it has narrowed what high school kids, their avenues have narrowed a little bit, that it's probably been good for transfers as far as, because everybody's, everybody wants a 21-year-old now. They don't want a 17 or 18-year-old. It's, that part of it I think has definitely changed. It's the math that doesn't add up for me. Okay. So there, there's 2000 young men in the portal. How is it that there's no room for high school kids? I, and is it just. Revolving chairs and you're sitting in this chair one day and then you're in another chair and that guy's taking the kid that was in your chair. It just seems like there should be more room for these high school kids to find their way. But every D two, every NAI, every D one coach tells me we're not gonna recruit high school kids until we know we've gotten out of the portal what we need. And then it's just it's been flipped upside down from where it was 20 years ago. We used, we, we used to recruit all of our high school kids two years in advance, get our commitments, and then if we knew we were gonna need a transfer, we'd start looking for a JUCO kid, we'd start looking for that transfer. Isn't that wild? It's very different. And like I say, sometimes I go sit in like last weekend I'm sitting watching six courts and I'm just like, at one point I told, I went home and told my wife, I said she was how was it? I said, at one point I was just bewildered because I'm looking and I'm like. I don't know, do I, could I get that kid? Could I not get that kid? Do I want to contact 20 people here? Do I wanna contact a hundred people from here? It's yeah. I see it. It's it was a little tougher for me this time because you think I don't know, maybe I can get that guy. Or and I think the thing, it's that no one understands about the portal. And I'm sure you do because you do all the recruiting stuff nowadays. But I read something the other day where 30, 30% of people in the portal get another opportunity somewhere 33 out of 10, 30%. And I had two guys last year that were seniors and they wanted to go play one more. They had one more year to play. Yeah. And they didn't wanna do grad school here because it was gonna be too expensive. So they were gonna go back to where they were from. And, they entered the portal and I think they were a little disappointed. That they didn't get more heat than they got. And it's I think that's the reality. I think a lot of people think I'll just get somebody's unhappy at school X. I'll just go to the, enter the portal and everybody's just gonna start calling me. And they're not, and I think for the majority of people, they're sitting around and then in June and July they're starting to call people just like they, people always did. Oh, I don't have anybody recruiting me. And it's I think that's the big misconception about the portal is everybody enters the portal and finds a place. There's a small chance that you'll find a, you might find a place, then the question is, do you find a place that is what you are looking for? Exactly. And I say that percentage probably is even smaller than 30%. So it's, yeah, it's a crapshoot. And I don't know that kids playing on rosters now. Completely understand that. I think you, and go back to what we started with. I watch your teams play. Now I watch you play against George at Greenville. I watch you play against Spalding. I'll watch you, I'll watch you play against Fon and I don't ever remember us having those type of athletes and the size that I'm seeing in the Slack. Now that I, you, you might've had a, you might've had a Connie, 1, 6, 7 kid that landed in your lap. Absolutely. I might've got a six, seven kid that landed in my lap, but it was really rare if we had three guys bigger than six foot four on the floor at one time. Now I'm watching these games and I'm going, am I watching the right teams? This looks like a D two game. This looks like a high level n AI game, or a, a Division one JUCO game. Are you, do you think the kids and the families are figuring that out and they're saying, we need to go where we can be appreciated and play I do. I do think there's a little bit of, and I said this when I first came to St. Louis, and I still think that I battle this sometimes. When I was at Maryville College in Tennessee, they were good and they would go play division two teams in that area and win or play'em within a two, three point game, right? They would play, they were like one of the best programs, small college programs in East Tennessee. So when we would go to Knoxville and recruit kids, there wasn't really a, oh that's division three. When I came here 24 years ago, that hit me like a pie in the face. I would go out and people would be like. I'd say, do you have any, talking to high school coach, they'd say I've got a guy that can help you, and he would want to give me their second guy off the bench. He can go play for you. And maybe that guy played at Webster or Fon or Maryville in the late eighties, early nineties when they were just getting started and it was like, oh yeah they're the perception still, I think with a certain percentage of people in St. Louis is, oh, that's division three. Anybody can go there and play. I, right? I have coaches tell me no, my, my kid's way better than division three and I want to go, come watch us play Illinois Wesley or Wash U and I want you to tell me if you think that kid is better than division three. I'm not talking about us, but I'm talking about, Illinois Wesley and Wash UI. Come watch us play Wash U then you tell me if you think, your kid is so much better than division three and. And I've had a lot of coaches, I've had a lot of high school coaches come with their kids and watch us play Font Bon or Spalding or Greenville and they're like, man, I, you guys are pretty good. I didn't realize it was that good. And I'm like, every level has got people that can play EE. Every team has got a bunch of high, some high school's best player playing on their team. And it's so it's I do think that has changed a little bit, but I still think that perception might be out there some with division three, but I do think that is changing because it's like I gotta go where I can. I, the other question I get from recruits and I got up the tongue for this year where do you see me fitting in? And that's a very tough question for me this year because as font bond closed at the end of this year. Yeah. So we're gonna have a couple of guys from font bond. Come play for us. I got a couple other guys coming from, we got some people coming from different places and I probably have more transfers than I've ever had. It's just a, it's just a freakish year that's happened that way. But, I and Mike Senior told me years ago, I'm too honest in my recruiting. I, he goes, man you tell people too much sometimes. But I have had to talk to these kids about, look, this is gonna be a compe. I do, I think you can play in Webster University someday. Yes. Or I wouldn't be recruiting You do. I think you could be a good player here and have a great career. Yes. Are you going to come in here and play 20 minutes right away next year? You better be ready to compete for it because it's going to be a very competitive situation. And I'm not, I don't make any promises to high school kids. And sometimes I think that's what they want to hear is I'm gonna go I wanna go somewhere where I can play right away and I almost sometimes want to go. Where is that exactly? Yeah. Now certain kids can, but just the average kid, I'm not, I'm like I, that's, I almost sometimes wanna go, where do you think that is? Because all these places, you're going to have to earn playing time no matter where you go. And I always have a freshman playing for, but it may sometimes not be the freshman that I thought was going play for me. I thought, that guy that's right. Gonna play for me now it's this guy playing for me instead. But it's, it's a very competitive it's gotten much tougher, I think, for high school students. Would you prefer the question we're asked to you? Do you see me having a chance to compete for playing time next year? Yes. Yes. The, that's easier to answer, isn't it? That's easier to answer. And it's, and I try I try and be, I. I tried deliver that in a way that's not, I probably al I see that right then I deliver it with the people sitting in the room. But it's, but it is, if I didn't think you could play, I wouldn't have you sitting here in this office right now. You know what I mean? It's, that's right. I do think you can play, I do see you playing here someday. Will you play next year? You might, but you're going to earn it if you do. And it's gonna be competitive. And, great quote from our baseball coach. He says this to his kids all the time. I say to my guys, now, I never used to say this, but I say it straight to them. I used to say this in a different way. Now, this is the best way I know to say it. I, in, in our individual meetings at the end of the year, I always say this. I say, Hey, we both got a job to do here. My job is to recruit somebody better than you here. Your job is to work hard enough and get better enough and develop through weight training, working on your game in the gym, playing basket, playing five on five in the off season. It's your job to be good enough that I can't do that. And if we both do our jobs, we're gonna have one heck of a good time here. And absolutely. And it's, I think the, I think sometimes the kid's perception is, it's like high school, next year it's my turn. And I'm like, not necessarily, it might be and it might not be, and so I do think that the toughest question for me to ask, and I just sit and wait for it. Every visit I have is the, where do you see me fitting me in next year? I wanna go to more Rock. Or mom or dad will say he wants to go somewhere where he can play right away. I have told kids that have emailed me and kids that have, I, I've talked to some kids on the phone and I've just told them, Hey look, I got 25 guys next year and we've got a ton of guards, and if you want to come here, I maybe would be interested, but you need to understand up front nothing is promised here and there's gonna be 15 other guards in this program trying to keep you from playing. Yeah. And I can't promise you anything. And a lot of kids have said, coach, I appreciate your honesty. It's I just, I wanna save you some time because if you're looking for some place, if you're, if you need to hear, and I've probably lost a lot of guys in 25 years recruiting this. If you need to hear me say Yes, come here next year and you'll play. I am just not going to say that. Yeah. Because that is something I cannot guarantee. Yeah. And it doesn't matter how good you are. No. It doesn't matter. If you were Allstate and you're six foot four and shot 38% for the field. We're pretty sure you're gonna come in here and fail at some point. And you're probably gonna fail in the first semester, if not first and sec se second semester. It's almost like we need to tell a kid if you do come in and you're playing 15 minutes game, either something went dramatically wrong or we're really good this year'cause we're already pretty, and if you're coming in, getting that many minutes right, we're probably pretty good or Right. We got a bunch of injuries and something went wrong. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And it's I had three guys this year played his sophomores three of my top six were sophomores this year. And they all played, they all started at different times. One big, I had a big kid that just graduated, that was the all time leading shot blocker in conference history. He was the third all time leading rebounder in conference history. He's the all time leading shot blocker in rebounder here at Webster. He scored a thousand points. He was three years in a row, the defensive player of the year in the conference. And the guy playing behind him was a sophomore. That was six. Six or seven. And when Carl got hurt for three games in January, when the conference, he going, Justin scored 20 points in every one of those three games. And then Carl came back and I had to go all right. He went back to playing 15 minutes off the pitch and it was like, and it was so he averaged nine or 10 points a game essentially coming off the bench. Although he did start some, I had another sophomore that averaged 13 and a half points a game as a sophomore. I had another guard that started off and on throughout the year, but at three different games this year, scored 20 points in a game.'cause he's a good perimeter shooter and he just had some games. He got hot outside and made some threes. But he's a good player. Those three guys. And I tell everyone coming in this, those three guys as freshmen all dressed on the varsity for me. The big kid played some because we didn't have any other big guys. The other two hardly played at all, and yet they were two of my top six this year and really good and will be even better in the next couple of years, I believe. And so it's, there's opportunities for you to play early in your career. It might not be the first game of your freshman year, I was like, it and E, everybody has to go through that. Figuring out what college is about, figuring out a new place, figuring out your new teammates, figuring out your new coach, and what are his hot buttons and what does he value? And emphasize your coaches having time to watch you every day in and out and see what your work ethic is and see what your attitude is and see what your. Ability to perceive and learn the system that you're doing. It takes time. It's it, my dad told me one time years ago, I wanted it to all happen for me right away when I was coaching in high school, and I'm complaining about how it wasn't coming together. And my dad, he had such a country way of saying things and he would say things and the times you'd think, what, what are you talking about? But then I would think about it and go, oh, he and he turn just turned and looked at me and said, son, you can want a flower to open up and bloom, but if you just try and grab the pedals and pull it open, you just gonna pull the pedals off of it and just kill it. Yeah. And he said, he goes, it'll bloom when it's ready to bloom. And I was like, what? What do you do? I don't wanna hear that crap. Yeah. But it's very, but that's very true. It takes time for it to all come together. And I think sometimes that's what Matt, when I played. You were in seventh grade, you watched the eighth graders play. That's right. You played when you were in eighth grade and then you went to high school. And when you were a freshman, if your program was good, you watched the sophomores play on the jv, and then when you were a sophomore, you started on the JV and maybe you dressed varsity, and then your junior year you were on the varsity and if you were good, you played. Yep. Then we went to college. I went to a really good program in college and I, my first year I played nine games out of 35. Yep. That's all I was, it was all end of the game. We're up 30, get out there for two minutes and get a shot up. It's and then my sophomore year I started getting to play again and I'm surprised sometimes now because I think a lot of kids just they, for whatever reason they got to play a u, you go play a u in the summer, everybody gets to play. Everybody gets to start at some point. Everybody's playing. Over half the game or more. So they want to go, they just think that every stop along the way. I'm I get to play. And I do think sometimes that's tough because when I was growing up and I went to high school, or I went to college my freshman year and I didn't play, I was like, yeah, these guys are good. I don't, I'm the worst guy in here. I don't need to be, but I was coming from a different mindset at that time. And so I think it's, I think sometimes it's Can you shift your thinking a little bit? And I have talks with kids once they're here a lot about, yes. I've told kids before, yes, you can transfer. You're gonna start this process all over again if you transfer. Yeah. A kid I, a kid that I like, a kid that I really want, some kids they come and tell you they're gonna transfer you. Okay. But it's I've had other kids where I'm like, if you do this, you're gonna start this whole process over. And you have one year list now. To figure it out than you had when you came here and started this process. Yeah. Yeah. And I said it's, I've seen a lot of kids that would've done well if they would've just hung in. And I, Matt I've told a lot of people this, I have not had a lot of kids leave here and go somewhere else and flourish. Yeah. This is it's different if you're division one maybe, but I said I've not had a lot of kids come here and not play and go somewhere else and flourish. Yeah. Most of the time they. That's the end. I, I don't, we don't see, I don't see it at any level. Even these transfers, it's so rare. We hear about those kids that get drafted, that transferred and got drafted. Absolutely. But there's another hundred that transferred and were the six man and got 12 minutes a game. Or if that if, so I it's all frustrating. And it's a big part of why I continue to do this podcast. I want families and kids to hear college coaches have this conversation. I want these families to understand this is how we talk to each other. This is how we think. And we're smart about it. We don't wanna lose, we like our job. If we go seven and 18, a couple years in a row, they're looking for another coach. So if you think I'm not playing you for political reasons or. Emotional reasons, or, it's something about our relationship. You're crazy. If you're in my roster and you can help me win, I'm finding a spot for you. Absolutely. Absolutely. If you're not playing, it means there's somebody else that's making us better than you. Absolutely. Or at least at the very least, Matt, the coach, we're all human. I've looked at guys and been like, man I, I realize later I should have played this guy over here more. Yeah. We're all, we make mistakes too, but I think it's a mistake. I tell my guys this sometimes that, we finally have the discussion where I'm in the office and they came in two times to talk to me about playing time, and we've talked about what they can do and finally I get to the point where, look, I just don't think you give us the best chance to win. That's right. And you have to make me see. That you give us the best chance to win every day in practice in a junior varsity or reserve game, you need to show me, I said, a lot of guys don't wanna play a reserve game or JV game and you go to a JV game and score 25. I go, maybe I need think this. Yeah. If you're playing a JD game and score two points in 25 minutes, all you did was reaffirm, that you're probably not impact, you're not gonna impact the game enough. And so it's I will finally just get to the point where I say, this is where I'm at, and I know this stinks for you. And this is hard for you and I understand that. And, but I have to make the best decision I can and maybe I'm making the wrong one, but I have to go with what I think is. What I think is the best decision. Yeah. And it's not personal. And you're going to have to either be okay with that and continue to work, or I'll help you find somewhere else. Yeah, no, I, if you wanna go somewhere else, I'll help you find somewhere else if I can. It's it's not per 95% of the time, it's not personal. The coach didn't like me, no. And in those cases where the coach didn't like you, you probably weren't behaving in a very likable manner. That's right. And I finally will just get to that point to where I may be making a mistake, I will admit that. But this is where I'm at. And you're gonna have to be, and I tell our guys this all the time, and I'll say it 50 times again next year, I'll say, play as a player, you have the opportunity to. To be egocentric. And I don't mean egotistical, egocentric. You're looking around and going, how is all this affecting me? Am I happy? Am I getting what I want out of this? And I'll say, you have to understand as the any coach, but especially the head coach, I never get to think like that. Yes, do. I have a guy and gosh, he's the best guy we've got, I'm just speaking hypothetically here. You have a kid and he's great attitude, works hard. He's got the, he stands on the bench and stands up and claps every time somebody does something he is, he's the leader. He's the, you love him. You'd want your, if you had a daughter, you'd want him to marry her, but he doesn't give you the best chance to win. I can't go, man. I really love this guy. I'm going to play him instead, if I'm trying to do, if I'm being honest to myself and the team and trying to do what's best for everyone. I have to not play that guy. Yeah. And it's a heartbreaker, it's a heart wrencher for the coach as well as the player. And I said they, they need to understand that a coach never, if he's doing it the right way, he never gets to look at it from that perspective. I'm gonna do what I would like to do. That's not necessarily, I have to do what I think is the best for the collective. And a lot of times, what's best for the collective really stinks for this one guy. And I can't help that. I'm human. This is an imperfect world. I can't make it work for everybody. 25 guys. I can't make it work for everybody. I have to do the very best I can. I'm gonna treat, I tell everybody I'm gonna treat you as good as I can, as well as I can. I'm gonna give everybody the same opportunity. I'm not gonna let some guys eat and not let other guys eat. I'm not gonna give some guys. Travel suits and backpacks and not give everybody a travel suit and a backpack. I, if you come in with a problem in class or you have a problem with your financial aid, I'm gonna sit down with you and I'm gonna call whoever I need to call to try and make that better for you. If you get sick at night, I, whether you play for me or not, I'm gonna come pick you up and take you to the emergency room and sit there with y'all. All of those things, I'm gonna do all of that stuff for everybody I've got. But when it comes to the playing time, that's the one area that I can't spread it out to all 20, 25 guys. It, you know it. At that point, I have to make some tough choices, but that is the reason I would want my son to play for you. That is the reason that if I'm a parent or I'm talking to a parent, it's why I would say, go talk to Chris Bunch because you're gonna get the truth. You're gonna get it direct. He's gonna take care of you, he's gonna care about you. He's gonna put you before himself That. Is the definition of a coach. I hope it's, and I know Mike would tease you about being too honest with recruitment but at the end of the day, you don't, I never did. I don't want to deal with a problem I'm looking at in a year when I already know it's a problem. I'd rather they know the truth. So they go I don't know if I wanna play for him. He's really hard, he's really tough on his guys. Even the guys say he's hard to play for sometimes. He's gonna get on you. He's gonna love you, but he's gonna kick you in the butt, whatever that may be. I'd rather they know that upfront.'cause I don't want you here, I don't wanna have to recruit your position again a year.'cause we find out 12 months from now, we're not a good fit for each other. I tell guys all the time, I'll say, Hey, look, if I lie to you and say, oh, come here, you'll play. Yeah. I tell everybody that. Yeah. Then when everybody gets here, somebody's not playing. And I said, if I lied to you, then you're gonna be unhappy. You're gonna sit around and you're gonna complain to the other guys in the team. And at some point, some of them are gonna start getting unhappy. Yeah. And then you're gonna call home and you're gonna complain to mom and dad and they're gonna be unhappy. And as it progresses, at some point I get to be unhappy because I lied to you about where I see you from. And I said, that's right. And at 58 years old, I'm too old for that. I, it's hopefully I've got 10 more years or 15 more years of coaching. I may not have one more year of coaching. I don't know. But I said I, at this age in my life and at this stage of my career, it's, I'm too old for that. It's you need to know upfront. This is where I am. And if you wanna be here, then great. I would love to have you here. If not, I understand. And, whatever. Yeah. I think we were too old for it when we were in our twenties and thirties. That's retrospect. Yeah. Okay. When you look back 24 years, how have you changed in how you, I'll throw some opportunity, some actions at you, how you run a practice. How's that changed in 24 years? Has it, yes, I'm sure it has. It's changed radically in the last year. I, like I say, a couple years ago, Mike was coaching soccer. He got outta soccer, didn't wanna be the head coach anymore, didn't wanna have all the head coach responsibilities and all that. His boys are starting to play. Yeah. Every sport known to mankind, and it's like he's trying to get to all their games. He's not. And then he came to me and said, Hey, I see you having a, one of your assistants left. Can I come back and help you? And I laughed. I said, dude, you just retired. What do you mean you retired a month ago, now you're wanting to get back in. He goes, no, I retired from being the head coach. And so Mike was able to come back and I've had him the last couple years. I had another coach in the area, George Little, that has coached a lot of different Yeah, I remember George. Yeah, George was around when I was there. He's helped me the last two years. Last year. You remember Cody? Brad Fish that played for me. Yeah. Cody was a high school coach, got. Different. He had a couple of kids got in a different place in his life and I had the opportunity last year to hire him. And I hired another guy, Greg Williams, who was a successful high school boys and girls coach for 30 years and had just retired from coaching and came here and worked a couple of camps for me. And I was like, if you ever wanna get in the, try the college game again one time I'd love to have you. I've got all of those guys. That's amazing. And so I have I laugh I say all the time to people I'm have, maybe you have as good a staff as any division three coach in America. And because they're all older, they've all been head coaches. They all get it, and next year I think we're, it's we've got it set up. Lance Thornhill ISS gonna come over here and he'll wow. Next year. That's a division one staff. You got, and so you've got four fed coaches. Exactly. And not just guys that were head coaches, but guys that have all been successful head coaches. Yes. And so they all, we have a lot. In the last year, we've probably had more discussions than I've ever, not that I didn't have discussions with my other assistants. I've had good assistants. I've been blessed ever since I've been here. But probably more discussions about if you were me, what would you do right here? A bunch or, I do this, and it's that part of it. I have changed a lot in the last year, but probably over time I did it anyway. Just when you're young. And when I was young and first started out in coaching high school, I was blessed slash cursed with coaching at a school that the girls head coach won 90% of the games in his career. He won four or five state titles. They were runner up four or five times, whatever. What my first year as a high school head coach, I went seven and 20. He had the number two ranked team in the country by USA today in girls. All five of his starting lineup got a D one scholarship offer that year. Wow. And so it was like, here I am coaching and I got this guy and it's like everything I do seems wrong. And everybody's going y'all do. Larry Neal does. It was really tough. And yet it was really good because Larry was the first guy to ever be like, let me tell you something. He goes, you, this is, it is not what you are doing right now. He goes, but at, he'd say it, it is the players that you have until you get better players. You just have to do as well as you can. And he goes, if you should win five games and you win seven. You had a great year. Yeah. And he'd say, Chris, I can't do that. I if I should win 30. And I, and I win 29, they want to, they wanna fire me around here. He just laughed and he said, it's hard for me to keep exceeding my own expectation. He goes, but for you starting off, that's, you have to think in lines like that. And as a young coach, I think that's the hardest thing. You want everybody to see. You're in charge. You want everybody to think you know what you're doing. You got every, you got the answer to everything, and it's and then you get older and you do it a while and you realize, dude I'm an idiot. I don't know how I don't know that, I don't know the answer to this. And as you get older, and especially in this past year, I. I have been I used to laugh. I'd come home from practice and Chris would say, how'd it go today? And I'd say, I went great. And she goes, I think you're having more fun than you've ever had. And I said, I am having more fun than I ever had. And some days I probably do the untrained eye. I just look like Nick Saban. I'm just walking around and they're all doing different skill stations and they're doing, half court defensive work on this end offensive, Cody's got offensive work on this end. They're doing stuff. And I just jump in the drill and bark a little bit and then step back out and walk around again. And I see people like that guy ain't doing anything. Yes, I'm sitting down with them and we're talking about the planning aspect of it. But I think for a young coach, one of the things you have to learn is that you have to hire good assistants and you have to let them do their thing. Yeah. I was fortunate to, every coach I ever worked with did that. When I went to Maryville, I. I remember Randy saying, okay, you got the post, go there and do this re you know, do some offensive rebounding. And I was like what drill do you want me to do? And he was like hey bunch, you've been a, Hey, you've been a coach for 11 years. You ever done a rebounding drilling practice before? I was like, yeah, good. Go do a couple. If it's wrong, I'll tell you. And oh God, I said that to Mike. I said to every assist I had, like Cody came in, he is I wanna do more shooting in practice. What kind of drills? I went, you are the one that says you did shooting drills in practice every day. He goes I said, do those. If I don't like'em, I'll tell you. And he was like, oh, okay. And it's I think that, my expectation is, and Lance, when we sat down and talked, I was like, dude, I'm not gonna try and you beat me like eight outta the last 11 times. I'm not gonna try and tell you, oh yeah, I know. Be quiet. I know more than it's like there are things that you do. You are better at than the, than I am at those things. Yep. I'm gonna let you do those things. Yeah. And you be the front man and you be out there in practice teaching the guys this, whatever it is. And you're gonna get to do that. Yeah. Because instead of you tell me and then let me teach it so all the guys know that I'm the one in charge. I said, I think you have to get away from that. Yeah. If you want your staff to enjoy it. If you want everybody to, if you want it to be a good situation, employ I'll tell'em every now and then, I'll say, all right guys I'll have some of the practice plan done and I'll say, okay, here we are, employee empowerment segment right here, Greg, you got these guys down here for two rounds of 10 minutes. Cody, you got these two guys. Do something offense. Do something defense. I don't care. You both coached for 30 years or 15 years, whatever. Do something. Yeah. You do what you like to do and I think that has worked. For us a lot better. Good. Now granted, I've had all, I've got all experienced assistance that you can do that. Yeah. A young guy, I realize you gotta here's a, here's some good drill to do, or whatever, but it's I've got older guys and it is just, it is sometimes, Hey, stupid, get out of the way and let you know. There's been times we've called a timeout and Cody wanted to run something and I just said, Cody, you tell him. And it's oh, coach Bunch isn't even talking to the players in the timeout. It's dude, it does, everything doesn't have to come through me. Yeah. And I think once you get comfortable with that it makes everything better. I think there's more buy-in from your assistance. I think the players respect your assistance more because, Hey, this guy's coaching me too. And I think it helps all the way around. I agree. Yeah. But that has changed. That has changed. That's probably the main change I've made over the. Is I do a lot more of that than I used to. I coached high school basketball two years ago and I couldn't find an assistant coach until November 1st. Couldn't find one. And then everybody I hired were the guys that played so little high school basketball, never saw college, they were just good guys. I spent the whole year coaching them. Yes. Which made it a real challenge when you have a varsity, a junior varsity, and a freshman team in two different gyms and Right. You're trying to help practice plan and Right. Teach them what a two, three zone is and how to move in a two, three zone. So when you've got coaches, when I had a Gene Meyers and you've had a mic and you've got a L lance coming in, it's so much easier on your soul Yes. To enjoy the coaching side of it. Yes. But you can say. I don't have to be the disciplinarian, I don't have to be the director every for 120 minutes every single day. Yes. Yes. And or I'm gonna go down here and watch the offensive stuff that Cody's doing because we didn't do this very well last night, so I wanna watch this. Exactly. And I don't have to be looking over my shoulder to make sure that there's, they're not down there kicking basketballs off the wall and goofing around. There, there's good stuff happening on that end, and I don't have to be involved in that. Yeah. They're getting what they need to get, and that's it's I told somebody at the end of this year, I said it wasn't my most successful year. Wins and losses and finish and all of that, but it was probably my favorite year of coaching just in my mental health. My happiness and enjoyment. I. After games. And that makes me so happy for you. And it I, it was a great year. I'm hope hoping this year will be even better, but, it sounds like you're, it sounds like you're, your freshmen. The software's coming back are just loaded, you got, so I'm excited. I'm so excited for you and for them. And, I, knowing you the way I do, I would imagine last year was probably the most you've been able to have somebody else run a drill and you can grab a kid, pull'em out, have a two minute conversation. Yep. Do some teaching on the side. Yeah. Probably more than you've ever been able to do. Yeah, absolutely. Here was the classic thing, Cody, his wife is a nurse, and so sometimes she's gotta work. And so they didn't have school one day, and so he had both of his kids, a 2-year-old and a 1-year-old. And which is not a problem for you. I know that. I'm already well versed with senior's, three kids. I've raised his kids, so it's so anyway, Cody would be there and Selena is crawling around on the floor there in mid court. And so it comes time for Cody to get in and do his five on five segment offensive segment. And so he's holding her and I said, here, gimme that baby. And so I'm like and they know me. His kids know me. Yes. I'm walking around with Selena talking to her, and they were and somebody came in and went. That I what is going on? I God. But if they know you, that's hog heaven for you going on around here, that is hog heaven for you, and I was just like, I'm just holding Selena and we're talking and I'm watching, it's and Cody's Hey, I apologize for that. I said, dude, you don't have to apologize for that. I said, it's part of it, and so that part of it has been very good. That's great. Having a bunch of guys around that I enjoy, not that I didn't enjoy my other assistants, I've enjoyed all my assistants, but it's there's just more of them there. I think we get more stuff done in practice. Absolutely not because they're better than the assistants I had prior. I just have more of them now to break things down and everything. Oh, it's so much fun, coach man. You have to be willing to let go of some, let go of some stuff if you wanna move forward, now I gotta convince Karen to move back to St. Louis so I could be your administrative assistant. Absolutely. Absolutely. I wanna be the ball boy of that badge. So somebody said, is Lance coming over here? He said, good god, bunch. You're gonna have two rows. You're gonna be like the NBA, you're gonna have four coaches sitting in that second row behind you. I said, no, it it is, there's a lot there. There's a, sometimes it's a lot of moving parts. Now they're not in every practice because Mike's got his job that he's doing. Yeah. Everybody teaches except the retired coach. So there's times if we gotta practice at two, it's just me and Greg, because Mike's at work and the other three guys are teaching, so it's sometimes it's just me and Greg and then, and it's hey, I've done that. I've done, I've in high school and sometimes here at Webster, I've been one coach and had 25 dudes in the gym, and I know how to do that too. I can, we do. I had to, you, you do what you gotta do, but it's it, that part of it. I've changed kind of the practice schedule. We go late more just so I can have all my guys there because it's better situation, all that. But it's been very good. It's been very good. Coach, this has been awesome. I can talk to you for hours and I miss you so much and Absolutely. It's always a joy for me. Let's do some let's do some coaching to younger coaches. Okay. Real, real quick. Okay. Piece of advice that you've learned over the years or somebody gave you that you think every young coach should really embrace? Couple things. Be yourself. I'm a, I think you'll know this. You did this too. I'm sure we all do. Every good coach is a thief. If I see something I like, I go, oh, I'm going to do that. That's right. Before I do that, I gotta make sure I've got the people in place that can do that. Before I try and do it, or I'll see some coach and his coach and then here again, getting back to my, the, when coaching in high school, the girls coach was the most intense human being I ever met in my life to this day. And I tried to, and everybody just thought that was the way you won. You were just a disciplinarian and you were hard on the kids and just chewing the ears off the side of somebody's head every time they were, Larry was intense all the time. Never changed. And I would try and do that, and I would make that about two days, and I was just exhausted. I would go home and just be like I can't do this. I, how does he do this? I can't. And I had to learn over time. You gotta do, you gotta be yourself, you gotta, and I used to tell Mike that when he first started coaching, I said, Mike, don't try and be me. Don't yell because I yell or. Be not laugh because I laugh or whatever. I said, you gotta respond to situations the way you would respond to situations. And I said, you have to be. I said, yeah, I think you have to be real with yourself because kids, people in general, but I think sometimes, especially kids, they see a fake coming a mile away. If you're trying to be something that you're not, man, they pick up on that quick. I said, you have to be yourself. Yeah. And I think that's one of, that's one thing that young coaches, they want to be like, oh, I wanna be like Brad Stevens, or I wanna be like Coach K, or I wanna be like, Rick Barnes or whoever. It's be yourself. Be who you are because you'll be much happier with your, and you're much more comfortable with yourself than you are with anybody else. So it's you need to try and be yourself. And the other thing is too, I think. I think this is, like I've mentioned in the last few years, don't be afraid to hire assistants that know more than you know about a certain area. I'm afraid he's gonna come in here and he's gonna know more than I know and the kids are gonna think he needs to be the head coach. And ah, and there's all of that stuff. If you wanna have a really good team and you don't know anything about zone defense, hire somebody that knew, knows something about zone defense and let them teach that. If you are a great defensive coach, but you don't, your offense is you're never really good and you're not comfortable with that, hire an assistant coach. That's a good offensive guy because that will, that makes your program more well-rounded and makes it better. Yeah. And it's not an, it's not a sign of weakness on your part, it's a sign of understanding. It's a really a sign of strength that you are. Comfortable enough in your own skin that you can allow somebody else to have some front time. And, it's okay. I think, there's things you gotta maneuver there, but I do think that's, that would be pieces of advice that I would give somebody starting. I think it's great advice for a 50-year-old CEO president, manager, leader, administrator too. It's hire people that are smarter than you. Hire people that are better. Absolutely. Don't hire people that are lesser than you or you worry that are gonna shine more than you. So I, I love that advice. You and I were both like this, but it would drive me crazy. I'd watch five of your games. We were gonna be the six team you were gonna play, and you'd play fricking Man to Man for 40 minutes and we'd show up and you'd sit and you'd sit in a 1, 2, 2 all night long. And we hadn't seen it all year. Drive me crazy. Okay. I was like, oh, we haven't seen him play this once and he's throwing this darn 1, 2, 2 at us, and it would take me a half to figure out what I wanted to do and get the boys doing it the way I want. When it comes to X's and O's, what have you learned over the years in terms of telling a young coach how to tackle that strategy? They're going to input what are some of one or two of those things? You're like, this is how and why you put a certain thing in play. I think you again, have to be willing to change. Yeah. You have to be, I see so many coaches and I've told people before, there's different kinds of coaches in different facets, but one of the things that I have seen a lot of is a coach that does things one way, for whatever reason that worked. I. So I'm gonna always do that because that worked when we went to the state tournament. Yeah. So that's what I'm doing. Or another kind of coach that I like North Carolina, or I like, let's say I like pick somebody I like. We, I like Bob Huggins, I like West Virginia, so we're gonna press just'cause Bob Huggins presses and he's successful with that. Again, that's what I'm doing regardless. I think you have to be willing to, Hey, this ain't working. Let's try something else. I think you need to have two things. And so therefore a long time we played mostly man, then we play a little zone. Then I got Chris O'Connell helped me about my 10th or 11th year in and he was a big SCO Syracuse two, three zone guy. And I went almost exclusively for about seven years. Two, three zone all the time. We just played man in emergencies and. Then I went back to a man base. But we play two three zone in certain situations when we feel like and it's odd. I play two three zone sometimes when we play a team that shoots a lot of threes because it's easier to spread out wide in a Syracuse style, two, three zone and cover shooters. When you play man, somebody that does shoots threes all the time, they've got 30 sets designed to get somebody open against a man to man for a three when you play zone. Now they're just having to pass it around and try and get the shots that way. Yeah. And so there are times I've played this year where we played man for 40 minutes. There's times we started out in man, and two minutes into the game we're down eight, nothing. And we went zone, and we played zone for 38 minutes. It's just you I think you have to be willing to experiment and say, Hey and I'll tell you this, Matt, as you get older, that's harder to do. I look back when I was coaching that first team and we went seven and 20 and that summer we went to three team camps and we went one and 30 in team camp that year. I didn't think I was gonna win a game. And we beat a team that was ranked in the state, that was in our county, a county rival. And we upset them. And I said to one of their, one of the guys I knew, I said, dude, do it look like I've shown'em anything. He said, how many games you won this year? I said, three. He goes, they don't need to make you coach of the year. They need to make you coach of the century. He goes, you shouldn't win a game with the team that you, it's not the greatest compliment ever. And I was like, thanks Dave. I needed that. I like, appreciate that. I think, and, but it's. But it is, I would do things then because things weren't working. I'd say, oh no, let's try this. That's right. And sometimes it worked. That's right. And as you get older and you've coached for 30 some odd years, you go, nah, I ain't doing that. That's crazy. I and sometimes maybe you dismiss things that would work if you were just brave enough to, but if you do it and it doesn't work, everybody in the gym thinks you're the biggest idiot that ever lived. And so you don't want to take that risk. And I said, I think is one of the things I find hard for me. Don't be afraid to try things. That's right. Again, in the framework of, is this you, is this what you do? Is this how you do it? But I don't be afraid to try things or have a couple of different things in mind. Be able to press if you need to or be able to switch to a zone if you need to. Don't just do one thing because you'll play some teams that man, you're playing right into their wheelhouse when you. Do whatever it is that you like to do. You better be able to do something else then, yeah. Yeah. I remember it's just recently, as the last year and a half, two years, I remember we were playing a team, just two dynamic guards. Just unbeliev. They played so fast. They were so good with the ball. And we were two, three minutes in and I pulled the team out and I called time out and I said, all right, we're putting in our press. And I could just see my assistant on the corner of his eye, his heart drop, we're gonna press these guys. And kids back out and the coach goes, coach, why are we pressing this team? Yeah. And I go, have you, you've watched a lot of film on these guys, right? And I go, yeah. He goes, yeah. And I go, have you seen anybody press them this year? And he goes, no. Let's see what happens. And we go on an eight Oh run.'cause they're not used to it. They're not used to being press sometimes. It's just that change. Yes. It's showing something different. It slows'em down. It makes'em think, it makes'em frustrated for a little bit. Maybe you're not in it for more than a minute or two. But yeah, I love that approach and I love that about you. And it was always the greatest challenge. I had to prepare for everything for you. I, I didn't know what you were gonna do. You had size, but your guards might kill us. Your guards might score 60 points that night. Coach, this has been a lot of fun. I'm gonna call it quick time out. Okay. And we'll come back and do 10, 12 minutes of recruiting. I want to get some hard recruiting advice Okay. For families. But thanks for doing this. It was a joy. No problem. I've enjoyed it too. I, it's always an honor to get to hang out with you for a little while. What a great conversation with my longtime friend, the head men's basketball coach at Webster University in St. Louis. Coach Chris Bunch. Chris, thank you for your time, your friendship, and your wisdom. I'm so grateful for your impact on the game. The young men you lead, and the coaching community we're both proud to be a part of. To all you listening, if today's episodes resonated with you, I'd love to connect. Please visit coach Matt rogers.com to explore all the tools and resources I've created to help coaches, student athletes, and families navigate recruiting, leadership and the journey to college athletics for my book Significant Coaching and The Softball Recruits Journal. And don't forget about one-on-one consulting sessions that you can do with me, whether you're a family, a coach, an administrator, a college president. I've built these tools to help you lead with clarity and confidence. And if you're a part of a school club or organization looking to bring in a speaker for your next event, I'd be honored to join you. Whether it's about college recruiting, leadership development, or building strong teams and strong kids with lasting impact. I tailor every message to meet your audience where they are. Thanks again for tuning in to significant coaching. Be sure to subscribe and share this episode with a coach or leader who would benefit from it. Until next time, lead with purpose. Recruit with intention and never stop pursuing significance.