Episode #128: Dr. Katherine Fell & Brandi Laurita

🎙️ Leading With Purpose: Findlay’s President & VP Share the Playbook

In this week’s Significant Coaching episode, Matt sits down with two remarkable leaders shaping the future of the University of Findlay — Dr. Katherine Fell, President, and Brandi Laurita, Vice President for Student Affairs & Athletics.

Together, they break down what it takes to build a campus where people feel known, supported, and challenged to grow. From leadership clarity to campus culture to the powerful relationship between academics and athletics, this conversation is packed with insight for coaches, educators, and leaders at every level.

Learn more about today’s guests:

🌐 Dr. Katherine Fell: https://www.findlay.edu/about-uf/president

🌐 Brandi Laurita: https://www.findlay.edu/search/Faculty-Staff?fsid=000501f4

🌐 Matt Rogers / Significant Coaching: https://coachmattrogers.com

If you care about leadership that actually transforms people, you won’t want to miss this episode.

🎧 Listen now and subscribe for weekly coaching and recruiting tools that help you stay focused, stay humble, and keep chasing significance.

Transcript

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Welcome back to the Significant Coaching Podcast. I'm your host, Matt Rogers. Today we're joined by two leaders who embody what it means to build a student-centered campus and a university athletic experience with clarity and compassion and purpose. Dr. Catherine fell President and Brandy Loreta, vice President of Student Affairs and Athletics at the University of Fin. We're kind enough to join me for a fun and enlightening conversation on why the college experience is so valuable and still necessary in a time where the purpose and value of a college education seems to constantly be in question. In this conversation, they share how they shape a campus where people feel known, supported, and challenged to grow. You'll hear their approach to building trust, aligning teams, and creating an environment where academics and athletics elevate one another instead of competing for space. This is a powerful look into what leadership should look like at the collegiate level. And as always, you can learn more. Read this week's blog. And explore the significant recruiting resources@coachmattrogers.com. Let's jump in. Here's my conversation with Dr. Catherine Fell and Brandy Lata. Hello, you two. Welcome to the Significant Coaching Podcast. It is an honor to have you on the show, Dr. Fell and Brandy, who's almost a doctor, we're on our way, which on our way she's one of our students. Come to think of it. That's fantastic. I'm gonna call you at some point and pick your brain. I need you to motivate me to go finish mine. So do it such, I'm such a bad classroom student, so I need as much motivation as I can get. I wanna jump into this, and I know this is always a fun question. I wanna take you back to 16, 17-year-old versions of you, or even your 22-year-old version of you. Could either of you imagine being a president or a vice president of a university at that point? Were you even thinking about it? Brandy, you can begin. I have lots of things I'd like to say about that. I will say it had never even crossed my mind. I didn't know what a vice president or a president did. Not saying that I actually have a clue right now. But, I had no idea. I thought I was gonna be a teacher teach phys ed. That was my undergraduate degree. That's what I always wanted to do. And I lasted one year in that role before I went back and started working at a higher education institution. So at 16, 17, or even 22 had no idea or thought that this is where the road would lead me. That's great. I lasted three years, just so you know, in the classroom, and I was, and then I was off to university. Yep. Dr. Fell, how about you? So I grew up in a very small town. I was the first member of my family to attend college. I was excited. I knew from a very young age that I would go to college and I was going to major in English, which I did. I be my plan was to become a high school English teacher, but I kept going soon after I finished college onto a master's degree and taught at the college level. But my first few days on a college campus are memorable. I, first of all, my roommate didn't. Appear I hadn't met her and she didn't arrive until the next day. And I spent most of the first night very cold because I couldn't figure out how to work the thermostat. So that was not a very promising start. Fortunately I had abilities elsewhere to get me through, but it turned out to be a great experience for me. And I remember those early days and those years. Finally, I'm still very close friends with people I met at the university that at Southern State College it's now a university, but it was Southern State College in Magnolia, Arkansas. What is it now? It's now Southern State University. Southern State? Interesting. Okay. Do they have an athletic program? Oh, yes, they do. They're oh, mule writers. It's the home of the Mule writers. I'm shocked you've not heard of them, Matt. I am too. Because I'm I do a lot of work with the University of Ozark, so I, oh yes. So I'm beautiful place. I'm beating myself up that I haven't heard of it. That's great. Just so you know, I, that was my plan too. I grew up in a town of 2000 people. And I was gonna be a high school English teacher. I have a degree in English. Okay. Then we have a lot in common. So we have a lot in common. And I was gonna, like you, Brandy, I was gonna be a teacher and a coach, and that was gonna be my career. And then at 26 somebody offered me a head college basketball job. And then I was an AD a year later and then the, everything changed. So that's hard work. All of those things are hard work. They are hard work. Here's my big question to transition from that, because I work with a lot of student athletes. I work with teenagers and families every day, and I want them to understand that. I think it's absolutely bonkers to think about your major at 16 or 17 because most people don't end up. Where they thought they were gonna be. So I try and get them to think about, what do you think? Will you enjoy? What do you think? If you had to do something for 10 years straight, what do you think you'd enjoy doing? And don't put a, don't put a profession behind it, but put the idea, is it working with kids? Is it working with animals? Is it working in a classroom? What is it that makes you happy? So where do you start? With that 18-year-old that gets to your campus that maybe hasn't thought that way, maybe has said I'm gonna be a doctor, but has no idea how hard that first year of biology or chemistry's gonna be. Where do we start with those young people when they get to you? I think we begin, I think we're good at the University of Findlay at beginning with honesty, and we don't start simply by saying, what do you plan to major in? But we fought. We try to approach our students as human beings, as multifaceted human beings who may have dreams and clear plans. At least they think they do, and those may change, but we. Want to educate the whole person. And I think we made that clear from the very beginning. We try not to divide them into academic groups so severely that they don't dare move across the lines. Yeah. And I think Brandy would agree with that. Yes, absolutely. And I would say, from a recruiting perspective, when student athletes are coming in, we really talk about picking the university, not the sport. Because anything could happen in the sport. And so you're not picking a place to go based on the coach or on the sport in particular. That should be the icing on the cake that you really have to find a place that's home, a place that you can have life outside of sport, and so really focusing more on their academic and educational experience than the sport. That has helped us with retention and with engaging students across campus outside of athletics. So I think it goes into that whole developing them as full people. Not just in a particular major or a particular sport. We all have read the research that those first five weeks of a college student's life are really key to the retention, to their health, to keeping them on campus. What is that? What does not only what does that look like at Finley, but what's the purpose behind those first five or six weeks for you guys? What are you trying to accomplish in your orientation period? Just to get them to understand they're not alone. This is gonna be hard and if you ask for help, the help's gonna be there. Where? Where does that begin for you? I think we, again, are honest with them about the fact that we understand the excitement and the stress of those first weeks. We do know that if students don't make acquaintances, friendly acquaintances, and maybe even real friends, and those first two months, they're unlikely to connect. And that is top of mind for us in those early days. I remember a really brilliant new student who came from several states away with his father and through after our art ceremony, which is a beautiful ceremony when we welcome our new students into the arts. And our tradition is that you don't dare walk back under the arts until graduation, or you might not graduate. But the art ceremony is a time also for the parents to separate. They're supposed to go away, and we have other events immediately following the art ceremony for students. But this particular student on that afternoon. Was very upset and his father came in to our building. The arch is right in front of our building near the street, and he came in looking for some help because his son was just suddenly very upset and unhappy. Brandy, you may remember that I think you were standing in the hall with me when that happened. And so I said if he's willing to come in, let's sit down and talk to him. And that was. Helpful to the student. I think it was very helpful. He's was, he's an, he's a brilliant student. He's done very well at the university, but he was not interested in all the hoopla, all of the games, all of the forced friendliness, all of the forced meeting and answering silly questions. From his point of view, he didn't say that. He was very polite. Very quiet and very polite, and I said, I'm president and I'm telling you don't have to do it. Just don't worry about it. Are you worried about your classes? Are you worried about studying? Are you anxious about that? He said, no, and the student is brilliant. He came with a great. Academic pedigree. I said, then don't go nobody. It's not required. And if anybody asks you about it, tell him you have an agreement with the president. And he did not attend all of the events. And when I saw him on Sunday evening, this was on a Friday, when I saw him on Sunday evening at a campus picnic, he was fine. And I think he has remained fine. But Brandi, you are up close and personal with more students than I am. Talk about this. Yeah, and I would say that experience probably helped us shape how we do orientation today. Because everything in the past, historically, we have done large events, large groups, fun loud things to get them excited and engaged. And I think that experience helped us realize that's not for everyone. And so we really adapted orientation that yes, we absolutely have loud, large, fun events, so we hope all of the incoming students will attend. But we also have more quiet events that they can go in small groups to make some of those connections. But it's not overwhelming because we've realized that large group atmosphere isn't for everyone. And that's not how they're gonna make connections. They're gonna feel overwhelmed, they're gonna have some anxiety, and that we really need to structure orientation in a way that allows them to find their own space. And so we have. Adjusted and adapted. And I think that really it's making those connections. We pair our incoming class with an orientation leader, a group of about 20 students, so they have an upperclassmen to help them, not just orientation, but throughout the whole first year. And that's been very helpful for our students as they engage and adapt to their new experience here on campus. I love that. That's such a big part of it, is having that older person there that's gone through everything they've, they're about to go through and say, Hey it's okay. And it's okay to be not okay. It's, you're not alone. Kathy it's funny I don't know if you two have seen this movie about what you just said, the movie Miracle, about the 1980 hockey team that won the Olympic yes. A long time ago. Yes. But there's a great line in it, and I always remember this. Where the star goalie doesn't fill out this big 200 page personality test that the coach wants all the boys to fill out. And so the coach shows up at his door and says, why didn't you fill this out? And the kid said, I didn't think it was necessary. I think it's foolish. It's going back to this young man that wouldn't wouldn't partake in the fun and games that you were asking them to do. And the coach, he looked at him and go. Then be the guy that chose not to take this test. That's the person I wanna see. That's great. Yes. I just, there's just something about that, at 17, 18, 19, we have so much of what we call a false courage almost. And to have somebody remind us that, okay, if you're gonna have that courage, be that person though. Be that person that challenges us here, challenges your classmates, challenges your professors. Be the person you're capable of. Don't just be that person that's brave for one minute, right? So I, I love that mindset and that's what I thought about that story. I wasn't gonna go here, but I think it's important to talk about what you two have to deal with. Let's talk about faculty buy-in. Okay. That's a good point. They love it when, with our faculty, our fa I will say this I've been in higher education now for 40 years. I was at another institution in Louisiana for 24 years and I'm in my 16th year here. And I will say that our faculty here are by and large. The most open and honest and cooperative of groups I have known, not only on campuses where I've worked, but through other presidents and other campuses, but they're humans and the, and they will buy in and work hard and try, but in times of difficulty then they retreat a bit. And they want to find easy answers or easy places for blame, but they can be pulled back in to reason if you listen to them and talk to them. And because they're in, they're, they feel vulnerable. And I think the way to address that is straight on and to admit your own vulnerability, but that you're staying the course and you will lead through it. And we need them to lead through it. Now we have a few notable exceptions who keep everything interesting as any group of humans would have. Of course, I'm not trying to pretend that we have created heaven here. It's not heaven, but there are heavenly moments. Yes. And my point of the question was we don't hire professors necessarily. To help us with the whole person growth. We want that. But we hire people'cause they're fantastic economics professors, they're fantastic history professors or biology professors and their mindset is, I'm gonna be the best at what I do and I'm gonna teach these kids all the things that I've learned over the years. How do we get the faculty to person where. Interview skills are important. Communication skills are important. Learning how to study the right way, learning how to be an adult the right way because they're the ones that have the hands into these kids every day. How do we get the faculty to buy into that responsibility when maybe that wasn't their focus to start with when they took the job? It's a good question, Brandi, I'll let you offer your opinion there. I think we manage it with many of our professors. Okay. Yeah. And I would say that it's a little bit of our culture. So we engage faculty in the recruiting process. So students are meeting with faculty when they're coming to campus for their visit. They're involved in our orientation process, so they will lead service projects, which is a huge part of our campus culture, is that service. And so all of our freshmen do service projects that are led by faculty and staff. And so I think some of those important touch points early help our faculty with that buy-in to see the students as people outside of the classroom before the classroom. Practices start. I think that helps us with a leg up. And then continuing involving and engaging them as Dr. Fell mentioned, right? It's not utopia there, there's always an oddity, but right in large, we've got great faculty who are willing to go above and beyond to make a call and say, Hey, I'm worried about this student. I don't have the answer, but can you help? And I think that is part of our culture on campus, which makes it a really great collaborative experience inside of the classroom and out. I love that I'd add this example or piece of evidence, Matt, at the end of each academic year as students are graduating, they're given the opportunity to write thank you notes to faculty or administrative staff, and that can be at every level, thank you notes to people who've made a difference. And there are hundreds and hundreds of them. And many of them to faculty and also to other people on campus who help them. So I feel that is. Very good evidence that our students know that most, almost everyone on this campus cares about them as individuals and they're not just using them as an opportunity to show their own knowledge, but they are there to teach them and to enhance the field of education with other people who know things too. Yeah. I went to co college in Cedar Rapids, Iowa School, very similar to Finley, and my greatest memories were the professor that would take me across the street and have a pizza with me, or invite Exactly. Invite me to their home and have a dinner, or Sure. Say, Hey Matt, let's go for a walk. Which college did you say you went to? Matt Cole College, COE in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. I yeah. I'm good friends with the person who just retired from Wartburg. Yeah. As president. Yeah. Another great school. I know the area. It's a beautiful place. It is. I loved it there. And I loved that I went to a small private there's so much that I gained because of it. I'm gonna just stay on faculty just for a little bit, because I just talked to a president a couple weeks ago and we had a long conversation. He really wants to not necessarily reinvent. How we go about teaching our students, but he's really cautious about making sure we're doing the things to get those 18 year olds. By the time they're 22 ready to go out into the world. And this is pretty crazy and I'm sure you've heard this, I'm sure you've had this conversation, Kathy, at some levels, but he's thinking about a 1 3, 1 semester where that first semester, the first month, we're doing life skills before we go, even go into the classroom. We're learning how to take notes, we're turning how, learning how to prepare. We're, and then that continues through senior year where. That last month, maybe before graduation, you're taking classes on applying for a loan or filling out your resume or doing interview skills. So I really dynamic stuff and he finished the conversation with, it's never gonna happen'cause I can't get my faculty there. Okay. But that was his, that's his thought process. When you think about that birth to death model. Of Finley what you want from beginning to end, and that the, when I say birth to death, that might be when they're 80 years old and they're still coming to football games, they're still, giving, writing a check every year. What does that look like for you in those first four years? What and think out of the box here, gimme some of those things you've thought about. What would you, if in a perfect world, if you get everybody on board, what would you do differently now? To help prepare for the world to be an adult that maybe you're not doing right now as much as you'd like. I, I think that I think we have made strides probably like the president you're referring to, but we're not completely there. I think students need. A combination of an administrator at some level, a staff member at some level, who cares for them. Usually that person would be in student affairs, a faculty member or two, and upperclassmen who can I'd like to see us do this, have groups of people to whom they can go. Yeah, who can help them. You don't necessarily need a professor to teach you how to keep up with the syllabus or organize your time or do all those things. There are lots of people on campus who do not have degrees in education who could help students manage their lives. And feel that they have someone to turn to. We could share that responsibility. And in that sense, bring everyone who works here into the fold and into the calling of teaching, including housekeepers. Our housekeepers in the residence halls make a big impact on our students. Absolutely. And those students make an impact on them. So I think. Turning the, in everything we do into a teaching opportunity would be helpful and exciting. Not only helpful for the students, but exciting for them and for those who are participating, who are actually paid to be here and not paying. I think there's a book in there, Kathy, I'm gonna help you write it at some point. Okay. I love, alright, let's work on that. Okay. Yeah, because I think that's what I don't think if my parents didn't go to college and I don't think my parents understood what I was going to get out of college because the people that. I loved were the people at the cafeteria that served me every day that I became good friends with, and I, learned about their children and got to meet their children and the physical plant people and the security people. Those are the people that I loved. I was a blue collar kid and I just appreciated Yes. How hard they were working for me, right? So I love that global education that you're talking about. Where do we go? For athletics, because athletics is doing some of this stuff automatically, right? Brandy, where you're coming in and you immediately have a family, right? You immediately have a team. You immediately have that one person who's watching your academics, making sure you're healthy, is seeing you every day watching your nonverbals. How do we take that athletic model? And help all the kids, all the non-athletes with that same thing. Is that possible when you can't afford to hire 50 mental health professionals? You don't have the budget for that. So how can we use athletics as a model with that? Yeah I would say, we're doing a great job in athletics trying to spread that out. We have a good peer mentor program on campus that is run through our briefer center for global engagement, and so that allows us to connect non-athletic, right? Our student athletes call them nas. Non-athletic, regular people who don't have that connection, who need somebody to go to, who don't have the built-in friends that we like to say athletics provides. So peer mentors also, we have a great system on campus called Starfish, which the connection of the name and what it does is, I can't figure out that connection, but it allows us to connect. Anybody that touches a student together. So any professor that teaches them in class, their advisor, the health center counseling our oiler success Center for all all over success and coaches. With a student. So if a coach is seeing, hey, I'm a little worried about this, or Hey, I'm noticing that this student, something's happening in their life. Everybody that touches that student then knows in a, an appropriate confidential level. So we're not sharing anything that shouldn't be shared, but it really allows us. To connect all of the dots with those student athletes. And so for non-student athletes, it's connecting everyone else, right? So their advisor knows, Hey, I see you just got an A in chemistry because that was posted and you got a kudo, and that's awesome. That's fantastic. And so there's somebody else that is connecting and making it a big deal. When they do something great and if things start to slip a little, somebody's following up and saying Hey. What do we need to do to get you back on track? And so that system helps connect the people. The system doesn't do the work, but it allows us to connect and communicate in a way that student athletes, non-student athletes, right? So if somebody's in the band director gets it and says, Hey, I, what's going on here with psychology? Because something's off, or your professor's worried about you. So there's always a kind of a second layer of somebody. Trying to have a touch point and connect, which I think has been really helpful on our campus. For a dad who's sending a daughter to college in a year and a half. That web that you're talking about, that, that's so meaningful to me. Now, I'm, let's talk about parents a little bit. I know I'm hurting you too. I'm talking about faculty and parents, but I'm gonna I think it's important that I let you two pontificate a little bit today because you're in the heart of this. And Kathy, I just talked to a president who you know very well. He told me, he goes,'cause I was asking him similar questions and he goes, Matt, I think we might be catering too much to these kids. I think there's maybe too much nurturing and not enough nature to get, to build a little toughness in them and to build a little, this is what life is gonna be like. How do we talk to parents about those things so they understand? Yeah, that's a good question. This has to be a learning process. We can't hold your hand 24 hours a day. You can't drop your child off. It's not daycare. There's gotta be that other side to that. What does that sound like to parents like me? We have a good orientation for parents when they come, and then even in the early months of the summer when they come for registration not just the first day or so when they're moving their children in we cover all the things that you would expect and we give some examples. And I always point out to them, having brought up five sons and one daughter, I have lots of examples of what, of the panicked calls that I get, and I try to tell them from my point of view as a student and certainly as a mother when they should. Worry and get involved in probably when they should hold off. And they love that lesson before they drop their children off. They're all in. They go, oh, that's brilliant. But when the child's not with them, they, for some of them, forget, we had a mother who, everybody, every campus has stories, but we've had mothers who will email. My, me and several others, if her daughter or son is in the wrong building, looking for a classroom, we've had this happen. I don't know that you want to put that out publicly because I don't want to be, I don't want this mother to hear me say this, and I don't even, I'm not even. I've had that story a hundred times. Okay. Could be hundred different of, you could say every campus has this story. Yes, but I think one dear soul, one of the faculty members who knows that the student, and I don't know that the student was worried at all, but obviously her mother contacted her, or she contacted her mother to say she was looking for a classroom. And I doubt the student knew she was. She was contacting the president's office and several other people. But we did have one faculty member who said, I'll just be the point person. And I, and honestly, I think that problem eventually worked itself out. Sure. And I'm happy for that. But it is hard and we forget having, we, we are so seasoned and we have done this so many times to welcome students and sent our own children away that it's easy to forget how difficult it can be. Yes. And I think we need to be sympathetic, but not not enabling. Are you the one that must And I aspire. I aspire to that. That's all I can say. I do too. Accomplished. I'm not sure, but I aspire to it. Brandi, you get more calls than I do. The balance is really important. My first question is usually, does your son or daughter know your calling? I love that. And if the answer is no, then we say, okay, let's pause. Happy to do a conference call with your son or daughter. Let's add them to the conversation. A lot of times that stops the call, right? Because their first thing they say is. Don't tell them I'm calling. So if we can add the student in or add them on an email, a lot of times it's very clear that they did get a panicked phone call with half the information not the full story. And so if they can get the full story, a lot of times their students are just calling. Not that they need them to fix it, they just need them to listen. And reminding them that listening is doing something. It doesn't mean you have to pick up the phone or send off an email. To try to fix their problem. But just listen, help'em walk through that. There's resources. But yeah, that's usually my first question is do they know? And if the answer's no, then we pause the conversation until we can bring the student in. And a lot of time that problem is solved very quickly. For all the parents listening without you knowing it, Brandy just gave you really good advice, let you know. I was just on a new campus that I hadn't been on in a long time, and I had to go to a, an office that was deep into campus and the parking lot was far away, and it was really big campus. I talked to four people that got me to that building just because I said, I'm lost. Can you help me get to building DEC? So I think the more we can teach our 16 and 17 year olds to just ask for help, use your surroundings a lot. A lot can be fixed really quickly and it gets them talking and it gets them being open-minded. It gets them coming outta their box a little bit, but it's a challenge. What's your favorite part of each of your jobs? Brandy? I have many, I, as long as you don't ask what the least favorite parts are, we can talk all day. No, but I think my favorite part is watching them come in. Our students come in as young, kind of wide-eyed, 17 or 18 year olds, and leaving as not their best self, but as a different version of themselves, right? They're gonna continue to grow and develop as people, but really watching them through that journey and watching how. They're not just being impacted by campus and the people they're engaging with, but how they're really impacting all of us. I know for me, I've got a, I have a 12 and a 14-year-old and. The amount of impact they have had from student spending Thanksgiving or Easter with us from different countries and what they're learning that's something that I can't replicate anywhere else and it's so impactful for us. And then to have those students, that's their best memory, right? They get to have an American Easter and they didn't even know what Easter was. My 12-year-old is explaining to them what Easter is. So those are the moments and the memories and really when you can connect that, that's my favorite part. 12 years. 12 year olds are great at explaining things, aren't they? They love Oh yes. Mine, mine talks pretty much nonstop. So she's got, I have one in my house too. Explanation Itest that Dr. Fell. What's the, some of the great things about being a president of a university? It really is a privilege. It's a, it's tremendous responsibility and a privilege. I got to meet so many students and families. They appreciate my time with them and they tell me, they answer my questions and they're respectful and polite and. I can usually get them past simply being respectful and polite into real conversations. And my best. Part of this job is to get to know students and to know them well, to remember them. I had a student we, I have a president's student council, and we meet not too often to take up too much of their time, but they love it and I love it. And I'll ask them questions about campus and they will give me honest answers and they'll bring ideas. To me. And one of them a few weeks ago, we, after a meeting, he said, Dr. Fell and he's graduating. He's 21 maybe 22. I, that's a relevant point here because he said, on my bucket list is to sit down and have a glass of wine with you. And I said, how old are you? And he said. 21, I think he said. I said, then let's have a glass of wine. I have wine. He said I actually brought a bottle with me. This is after a council meeting, had it in his car, and there were a couple of his friends still there. I said, are you all 21 as well or older? And they said, yes. I said, okay. Then we will each have a glass of wine. So we sat around in Adirondack Terra under the tent in my backyard. And had a glass of wine and a wonderful conversation. And I visit with this student often about a number of very important campus matters, and I benefit from it. I, he enjoys it. And he's forthcoming with his respect and his care and his honesty about what's great about the university and a few things that need to be, improved and I find that very valuable. And that's just an example of what I find great about being a president. I can gain access and I can give access, and I want people to learn from that, to enjoy that as much as I do. I want our students and our faculty and staff. To know that, and I believe that most of them do. I can't get to all the thousands of students, but I think the reputation of the university is mirrored. I hope it in its best parts, by the way, that I open this office to people and I'm available to them. So that's what I love about being a president. Yeah. Not so much the budget meetings, not so much the awakenings at four in the morning. Yeah. But I do love the job. All of the good parts make the hard parts worth it. You both have given me. So much inspiration to get back into higher ed.'cause those are the things I love and I miss. It's amazing how these young people keep us young even when we don't get the sleep we want and we're up all night thinking about, of course, yes. Or their issues and how to help them with them and how to deal with those big problems. I'd be remiss because athletics is such a big part of my world. If I didn't ask you both about the future of the NCAA and specifically your level NCAA division two. Brandi, you start, I have a lot to say about it. Yeah. But Brandi is the expert. Yeah. I would say the uncertainty and the continuing, evolving landscape is keeping us on our toes. We're really having to rethink how we do things with the transfer portal. That's probably the biggest impact for us. Not as much of the NIL. We're seeing a little bit of NIL but not to the extent that large division one schools are seeing, but really making sure that we're keeping students engaged. And we don't have the luxury as much anymore to bring in students and develop and grow them as people. That's always been our model. Potential develop, and then they have success. And so we're still doing that, but we've gotta add in, right? There's transfers and if they're not getting the playing time they want, right? Are they leaving? We've been fortunate that we haven't had a lot of student athletes enter the transfer space, but that continues to evolve. In division two, we're looking at. Do we allow all students to, to play for five years? We'll vote on that in January. And what does that look like? What does that model change as We have so many students coming in with, college credit Plus, and so they can finish a degree in three years. Now we're gonna give them five years. What does that look like? And the thought of that, the same old is gonna make us be successful. I think that anybody in athletics would say, if you're not thinking ahead, you're being passed up. And so you've gotta be able to be adaptive and think about things differently, which is sometimes a little bit hard for some of our coaches that have long tenures, right? They're changing and having to change not only the way they recruit, but the way they coach. So it's evolving and changing. And I don't know if we're headed in the right direction to be honest with you. I'm not convinced of that yet, but I guess only the future will tell. Do you think we're go ever gonna get to a point where we have structure to the portal and the NIL that allows us to really teach kids about the loyalty and the commitment and. And make that education their priority. Are we gonna get back to that or are we gonna head stay down This wild west journey we're on. I'm a little bit worried that, the genie's out of the bottle and I don't know how we bring it back to a way where those things are important. I think that the value of education has been lost in many people's eyes when we think about college athletics. Yeah. And here at, the University of Finlay, that's. That's the forefront and that's what they're doing. And we've been fortunate to be able to have great student athletes who come here because they know they can do high academics, high athletics. And so if the academic part isn't important anymore, what does that mean? So I'm hopeful that we can find a path back. I'm just not sure what that is. So open to any suggestions you may have? I've got lots. But we'll save that for another conversation. I'm interested in how you both. Maybe are changing your hiring practices with coaches and athletic directors. Are you looking for something different now, or do you have to almost play the game where you need people that really understand the portal? They've got experience recruiting out of the portal. They've got experience retention in their rosters. They've learned how to win already with maybe a little bit instead of a lot. Is there a thought process into how you're hiring that's maybe a little different than it was five, 10 years ago? I will say that we have been fortunate in that sorry, in the airport, right? They're making an announcement now. We haven't had a huge turnover in head coaches and any of our head coaches. So we, they come and they stay. For us, it's really more important about finding someone that wants to be at the University of Finlay. So we are division two, we're high level division two, but we are also, operating on a very conservative budget. And so finding somebody that wants to be here is our top priority. I think you can teach people how to learn X's and O's better and to do some of those things, but it's hard to teach somebody to be a good human and to really buy into what's important to us on campus. So that for us, has been our top priority. Priority. That hasn't changed. But once they're here, how can we help educate them on NIL, on the transfer portal and some of those things. But we're definitely not looking for that as a key component for the hiring process. Okay. Dr. Fel, do you have any extra points on top of that? I'm very proud of our athletics. I really am. Our athletes retain slightly at a slightly higher percentage than our non-athletes. They graduate with a high GPA on average and they get jobs. Those are the key factors for me that indicate that we do not have our priorities out of whack, and we've got some great teams. This is an amazing athletic year for us. I don't know why you haven't already. Heard that we beat ly last week and we haven't beat them in 19 years, and we're pretty excited. In fact, our football team has a 10 zero win record and actually and all of those things, we have a number of sports that are doing particularly well right now, but we are in, we moved from a conference several years ago that c was a combination of, public and private institutions, some of those public institutions were quite large and we moved to an all private institution within a particular radius. And that has worked beautifully for us because the presidents of all of our institutions in GMAC, the Great Midwest Conference, athletic Conference are committed to reducing the time away from classes. And so forth. And so we are similar in our approach. And. That helps. The fact that we're in a conference that is highly competitive at the D two level and places strong emphasis on class time and academic success helps us tremendously. And we're playing good teams. So our students are getting a good athletic experience, but they go to class. Our coaches make sure they go to class. Good. And I think that's the hardest part about Division one right now is. We've got conferences now that are coast to coast. And we've just totally lost the idea that these kids need to be on campus. They, not only for the education and being in the classrooms, but they need that community more often. They need to build those relationships. So you can't do it when you're on an airplane. So I love that's been your focus and I love the transition to your new conference. And yes, your football team is going great and will wish coach great luck against Tiffin this weekend. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, good research. Thank you both for this. If you're open to it, I'd like to come back and do one more segment where we talk a little bit about recruiting and Sure. We dipped our toe into it here, this last part. But thank you so much for your time and I learned a lot and had a lot of fun, and I hope it was good for you too. Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. What a great conversation with Dr. Kathy Fell and Brandy lta. They reminded us that great leadership isn't loud or complicated. It's intentional and it can be fun. It's where we create a campus where people feel seen and they feel supported and held to a standard that helps them grow. Their partnership at the University of Finlay is a powerful example of what can happen when academics and athletics and student life work in true alignment. If today's episode resonated with you, please visit coach matt rogers.com for more leadership tools, weekly blogs, and the full library of significant coaching and significant recruiting resources. And don't forget, part two of this conversation is gonna come out on Monday where we'll have our significant recruiting podcast. We shift the focus to what recruits and families should really be looking for on their college search and why they're fit at that school is greater than just about everything else. Until next time, stay focused on what you can control. Stay humble and keep chasing significance. Okay.