Episode #139: Grant Leonard on Recruiting

🎙️ Division I Recruiting, Unfiltered with Coach Grant Leonard

🏀 In this Significant Recruiting Podcast episode, Matt Rogers is joined by Grant Leonard, Head Men’s Basketball Coach at Queens University of Charlotte, for Part 2 of their conversation—focused entirely on Division I college recruiting.

Coach Leonard breaks down how recruiting has changed, what coaches are really watching when they evaluate recruits, and why so many families misunderstand how Division I decisions are made.

This episode is a must-listen for recruits, parents, and coaches who want clarity instead of guesswork.

Learn more about Grant Leonard here:  Grant Leonard - Queens Head Men's Basketball Coach

Transcript

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And the issue is, everyone wants to shortcut it. Everyone thinks they can jump the process. You can't. There's a reason why successful coaches are successful. They attract good players'cause they continue to develop them. And as a coach, if you continue to develop kids, more kids will come and you can't fake the recruiting if you think you can, the kid will go to the wrong level and get tossed back down. And that's the worst thing that can happen to a kid is they go too high. They get a terrible experience and then now they're on the wayside going down and their confidence is broken. Welcome back to The Significant Recruiting Podcast. I'm Matt Rogers. I hope you all had a great New Year's celebration. Today is part two of my conversation with Grant Leonard head, men's basketball coach at NCAA Division one Queen's University of Charlotte. In part one, we talked about Queen's transition from NCAA Division two to division one, and the changes and the consistencies that Coach Leonard has seen and learned along the way. I highly recommend anyone who hasn't listened yet because it is filled with great advice for coaches and families at every level. Today we shift gears. This episode is about recruiting. I've honestly been dragging my feet to adjust to the changes in NCAA division one and division two sports. I struggle with the chaos that is the NCAA portal. I wish there was better rules. I wish there was better procedures. I wish there was better direction for families and kids going through this journey. I am often heartbroken by how many kids chase NIL money, instead of chasing personal growth and development and finding a place to learn how to be resilient and learn how to become the best version of themselves. My conversation with Coach Leonard put me over the top of these thoughts. He made it clear to me that I have to adapt to this new world and teach the process of college recruitment differently. That all starts with understanding that a recruit's first commitment does not and maybe should not be seen as their final commitment. In this crazy chaotic, yes, I'll use that word again. System of college placement and endless transferring. It's more important than ever that kids choose the place where they can play sooner rather than later. Instead of choosing to chase a higher division, coach Leonard pulls no punches in our conversation about the fact that he doesn't need to read emails and listen to voicemails from potential recruits because. They already have the list they want and are able to get what they don't get out of the portal anytime they need it. If there is value in listening to this episode, and there is a lot it will be to understand the reality that athletes, parents, and high school coaches need to face. I love this conversation and I'm impressed with Coach Leonard. He has the right perspective on building healthy programs while doing it in the confines of this wild, wild west of college sports we now live in. If you like this episode, please make sure to subscribe and leave me a comment. They are more appreciated than I can tell you, even those comments that differ from what you heard from me or my guests. Let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Grant Leonard. Coach Leonard you've had a great run and it's just starting for you. Your career is gonna skyrocket the way you're going and you're doing great things with Queens. Let's dive into how you're building it. Because I, I think there's some pieces to how a Division one coach builds a program that just need to be talked about more and understood more. There's too many kids, we don't want them to stop chasing that dream at Division One, but we want them to understand that there may be better options for them. And so talk a little bit about just. The overall picture of how you build a Division One program, and what are some of those pieces that you have to put time into? Yeah, I think first your goal as a coach should be, obviously, depending on your system, but. To build the most talented roster you can get within your system. Okay. And talent looks different for different systems, so you gotta understand that. There's the Princeton systems and then there's the pressing systems, and so every system is different, but you want the most talented pieces for that system. So when you're building a roster you're thinking about that all the time. Like how do I accrue. The most talent possible that fits within our system. And then also like the balance of, okay, culturally, like you can't play when you have 13 or 15 scholarships. You can't play all those guys. So there's gonna be some developmental pieces on that. Okay. But what does that look like talent wise? And then the expectation of who's gonna play. And then if we had some injuries who might have to play. Then also developing players. So there's a combination of those things, but I think you, as you build a team, you have to, as a coach, you want to have more talent than the other teams. How hard is it at your level right now, going after talent where, you make it outbid? What does that look like? Now it's so transactional where it used to be almost all relational, especially when you guys were at the D two level. How do you attack that kid? You're like, God, I love that kid. He would be the perfect three in our system, but I know somebody's gonna give him this amount of money. And do you keep attacking that? Do you go after that or does that give you pause? First I still think that re relationships and the building of those relationships and maintaining them is still a huge part of recruiting Good. And it in general, I'm not gonna lose a kid to an a CC school because they outbid me. That kid has a CC recruitment. I can't afford'em anyway. Okay. That's just how it works. So in general, you're still recruiting against, in my opinion, usually like schools. Okay, so how do you, how are you determining that though? Do you know that going into the situation, you just know a C'S already on that kid, so you don't waste your time? Or is there times where you go, I like that kid, and then you find out that Wake Forest or North Carolina is already looking at him and talking to him? If you, if say a kid. Is claiming that he has those, that recruitment or those offers, it's finding out if one, if that's truthful and okay, are they really serious about'em and where are they at? And that's where the relationship piece comes in. The people around them, should, hopefully someone, there's a truth teller in there. Okay. That's gonna tell you well yes, wake Forest called. But he's does not have a visit set up yet. And especially when you're talking about portal recruiting, that happens really fast. And so there's some opportunity for you there if they're not that aggressive. But if a kid has six high majors Yeah. One of them. So that one you avoid. And then you honestly, if you have real good relationships, I can call Wake Forest too, and we all collaborate together. It's not that competitive in that Wake Forest and NC State are competitive against each other, but the guys at Wake Forest will if I call them like, Hey Grant, like we're really recruiting that kid, you don't need to waste your time. Cool. Thanks. Got it. Right now, you can still put a, a line out to a kid, Hey man, I hope you get that Wake Forest thing, but if everything falls through you gimme a call. And I've had that work. We had a kid last year from Fresno State. He was an all commerce player for us, transferred from Fresno. He graduated and he had a year left. And his. His perceived market was higher. And I told him, I said, look I would love to coach you. This is what we have. Why don't you take two or three weeks and figure out if that's really your market? And if it's not, gimme a call back. He called back two weeks later as I coach him when I do the visit, I said, okay. I said the, remember, this is where we're at. Don't come on this visit if it's not enough. He came, he loved it. He came here, he got everything he wanted. He's playing pro now, and it was a win-win. But sometimes you gotta put the hook out there and just let him know. But like this, we're not bidding. This isn't a negotiation. This is what we have. And if it's not enough, don't come. Don't come. How often are you saying that on the phone? A lot. Yeah. But when you have a good staff, they're saying it first. Don't get me into a situation where a kid wants what we can't have twice. What we can't have. And I tell'em all I'm not negotiating on a visit. You guys are gonna know where we're at. This is what we are gonna have. And if it's not enough, then don't have'em fly out here and waste our time. When is that happening in the layers of conversation where money is topic. Number one, is that happening on the first phone call or, unfortunately, is there, is it now where it's, if you're not having that conversation, you're wasting their time and yours a hundred percent. Way too early but it's the reality of it. Things move fast with the portal, so it is part of it. But I'd rather know right away too Hey if you want 600 grand, this is not the place for you. Where's it at with freshmen? Because, and maybe let's go back a step. How are you building your roster? Are you still looking at freshmen? Are you always looking at the portal? What's the percentage you wanna bring in every year? Let's say you need five bodies, six bodies. Is it four portal kids and a freshman, or is it something different? It's, it's different every class, but we have signed and played freshmen every year that I've been here, and we have two freshmen on rotation right now. I'm really big on that. And again, we talked about talent. Okay. And so I think the high school pool right now is under recruited. Great. So I can get a more talented player. In high school then maybe I can in the portal, but the portal player's more developed and experienced. And more established as far as I know what they're probably gonna do and what their output is, what their ceiling is, but also what their floor is. Freshmen, there's more volatility in that. Okay. Yeah. There are gonna be a lot of bad habits with freshmen that you gotta break and you gotta be willing to break and you gotta coach'em different. And you gotta be upfront about that in the recruiting process. But the two freshmen I have, I can honestly say we have three freshmen. One's Redshirted, he's really talented, but two freshmen are in a rotation. They are probably talented above our level. But they do dumb things above our level too. Yeah. And so we're, every game they're getting a little more consistent, but they still, but really good players. Really good players. So now I'm willing to do that. Some coaches are not right now. Yeah. And some coaches are not built to develop those players. They're built to coach, ready-made players. It's okay. Yeah. But you gotta know what you are as a coach. What bothers me with all of this is, and you stated this in the last segment, how important development is to you and how that still motivates you and drives you as a coach. I don't know how you got into this business where that wasn't a piece of who you are and what you enjoy doing as a coach. And the long-term effect of bringing in that freshman is you get to develop'em your way with your strength conditioning coaches, with your system, with how you see their future in your culture. If you can keep that kid for four years, that just seems like a huge advantage for your program, doesn't it? It is, but right now it's the exception. It used to be the rule. Yeah. And then the exception was the kid leaves. Yeah. Now it's the opposite and every school is different. Queens is built to retain, players more often because of the nature of the school and the academics of it. When you choose an academic school there's a strong component to that. And Queens is an academic school, right? So that's a part of the decision making process and then part of the environment that the family and the kid want. And so I think we're able to retain more, which is an advantage for us in our league. And you see it every year we typically retain more than most teams. You started to see it a lot from the, in the last you talked about Roy Williams and Shaky. I think they both at the end of their career accepted, I'm gonna go after that kid. I'm only after for a year that's gonna go to the pros. Do you have to think that way about the freshmen you bring in, if they come in and they have a great year, that you may lose them to a power four? I think it's transparency. Like you have to tell the families upfront. I'm, if I'm really doing this the right way and I'm really developing your son, when they develop past a point to where we can no longer afford what their market value is, then I have to be willing to not only let you go, but help you make sure you get to a spot where you get everything you want. Goal you want along with the money that you want, along with the type of culture and environment you want, okay? And if you're not willing to do that as a coach, then pe then the environment will be broken and people will be doing things behind your back the whole time, which still probably happens some. But if you're really doing it right and they really trust you, they trust you with the development of their player, and her son. Then they're gonna trust you, that you're gonna tell them the right thing at the end of the year and year to year, that everyone will be on the same page. That you're the, you're their partner in their life journey. That's correct. And that they'll always be a part of your family if we're doing this right. Even if they leave. It's great. It's such a great statement about your character and really what the nature of our business should be if we're doing this right. This is a tough question. And I don't mean it one way or another. I'm not looking for an answer. I just want to hear your thoughts on it. Where does loyalty play in our game today? In the world of higher education? Is it even in the top 10 of what we're looking for anymore? Is loyalty even valued anymore? I believe it is, and I believe it is with the right kids too, with character. But I'll be honest with you, like just because a kid leaves doesn't mean they're not loyal. Okay. There's a lot of kids who do leave who are exceptionally loyal, and let's be let's also say it this way, coaches leave too, right? And just because a coach leaves doesn't mean they're not loyal. Okay? But like, when you have a life-changing opportunity, sometimes you gotta go. Yeah, that doesn't mean I've always had 10 toes in at Queens. 10 toes in. Yeah. I desperately wanna take Queens to the national tournament. Okay. It. That is an amazing thing and I would want to build Queens into a sustainable, a sun power. And if this was my last job ever, it would be amazing. An amazing experience like what Bob McKillop built at Davidson and what John Becker's built at Vermont and what Rick Bird built at Belmont. Awesome. I would love to do that. If it works out, awesome. But that if I ever left, that doesn't mean I'm not loyal to Queens. And I say that when a kid leaves, like we had a young man who spent five years here, AJ McKee, he actually just texted my phone'cause he's probably here for Christmas. But he's playing pro. But he left here after his fifth year. He had another year and he got a chance to make life changing money and I helped him do that. And he still went and played pro and he still comes back here. This is still home for him. That school he went to really was his first pro job. Yeah. But AJ's unbelievable. Loyal to Queens, and I'm unbelievable loyal to aj. He handled everything the right way and there's a lot of kids that do it the right way. And that to me is what matters. The character in which you go about how you do it. Said, coach. Said. Talk a little bit about where we're headed real quick, and I don't want to get into the, I don't wanna get into the weeds with this too much, but I just want you to give your perspective on where we're getting with rules and processes with the portal. NII, especially NIL or is there going to be some changes that are gonna make things healthier to where we can have some competitive balance, or do you see. That ship's already sailed. Yeah, I don't think any of that's happening, and I'm gonna be upfront and honest. The division is only gonna continue to grow. And that's part of it. It is. In theory now, you can have equal competition for a player. I can play a player, they can pay a player. If I want to value that player more, I can pay'em more. But everything's still financially constrained. Schools can afford what they can afford. They're in their market for a reason, and that's a part of it. It doesn't bother me at all. What is important to me is the competitive balance of your league. Yeah. And if there's, you don't, what you don't want is two schools way up here and then the rest of'em way down here with their budget. You want it to be pretty close to equitable, and that's what makes for a competitive league. And then a league that is trying to continually grow and push boundaries. That's awesome. Which I believe our league is doing. But no I don't think that Queens should be worried about competing with North Carolina for a recruit or NC State. Like that's silliness. And it's never been like that. And so I shouldn't worry about that. I should worry about how do I build the best AUN team and how do I keep that culture and environment sustainable so that we're constantly competitive and every year, because at the end of the day, you can get the same size that Duke of North Carolina has. You can find the same speed. Find maybe the same type of shooter, maybe not the three or four categories that they have. Maybe you're getting one or two of those categories. My, am I saying that right? There's there there's one or two things that man, that, that make them attractive for this level, but they have a whole or two. Yeah. And at that, at when you go to the highest levels, they have less holes. Or they have a trait that is just so insanely good that it's translatable, and you can tell, if at this level, at this point in my career, if I can't walk into the gym and say that kid's gonna play in the SEC or a CC then I'm probably not good at my job. But I think that most of us can do that. Okay. That kid I don't need to worry about that one right now unless something crazy happens. I'm gonna worry about these kids over here. That's gotta be the great motivator for you going, okay, I'm gonna build this roster. We're gonna compete for the as Sun championship. I'm gonna get these guys ready that when we play in April, you know that last week of March and early April, and we make it to the dance. We're gonna make this group transformative. We're gonna put them in a position where they can compete with those a, c, C schools. Is that still what motivates you? For sure. Yeah. Everyone wants to in that, on that biggest setting and everyone dreams of March Madness. That's why when people ask should they expand the tournament? Absolutely they should. First of all, there's more teams in division one. Let's talk about the kids and their dreams. Yeah. How many different kids get to accomplish that dream of playing in March Madness, or maybe hitting a shot? People are like it's just a playing game, man. For some kids that is life changing. Let's let have more kids have their dream. That's right. It's still hard to get there. Trust me when I say that. Like it is impossibly hard to get there in a one bid league. But let's not forget why we do this. All of this has been about the kids. Yeah. And so we're a player forward program and I. I should be about helping them accomplish their dreams. And the NCAA should be about that too. They should be. And so letting more teams in the dance, for me, it makes sense. All right, coach, I'm gonna unleash you. Give the six, 15, 16-year-old high school boys basketball player that wants to play at your level. Give him a piece of advice. First go where you wanted. Okay? And you can tell when someone wants you because they learn about you. They learn about the people around you. They're in your environment. They come to your games, they come to your practices. They it, you can tell when you're really being recruited. So I will tell you this, and this is a huge thing for me. Everyone. I've had so many people ask me like how can I get on your radar? And I'm gonna be honest with you. You can't. Yeah, and I protect my radar because I wanna spend 99% of my time recruiting the 1% of kids that I probably shouldn't get, that I can, that can change our program, versus me spending a lot of time with kids that are trying to get me to want them and I don't know if they're good enough.'cause I haven't evaluated them. I can walk in a gym and figure out who can play for us. Then I gotta figure out can I actually get involved with them and can that actually, can we get them here? But I don't wanna spend a bunch of time recruiting a bunch of kids who I don't know if they're good enough. That's, for me, that is wasteful time. So I don't respond to outsourced emails. I don't, and I pretty much only respond to Queen's emails. I don't answer recruiting text messages, LinkedIns, Facebooks, Instagrams, Twitters, exes any of it. I don't answer any of it. I don't look at it. I don't watch the videos because I get 200 a day and if I spent two minutes opening up 200 a day on each one, that'd be 400 minutes. That'd be two thirds of my day gone. On kids. I don't know. I spend that time on the players I want that I've identified, and I really recruit them. So go where you wanted because that's where you're gonna have an impact, because that's where that coach believes you're gonna have an impact. And with the way the system works now, if you think you're above that level, go crush it at the level you're wanted and then you'll go up. But right now, I'm sorry to tell you. Emailing me 50 times is not going to change the fact I'm not gonna open email. Yeah. And if I'm sitting here with you as a first year division two coach, or an NAI coach or a D three coach, your message is probably greatly different. But what families need to understand and kids need to understand, you have all the talent you could possibly want in your funnel. You know how to get'em, you know how to chase'em, you know you're gonna get a percentage of'em. So be smart about your time if you're a recruit as well, and I wouldn't hire a recruiting service, and I apologize to any recruiting service out there because I only trust a handful of people in this business. Yeah. And so if they bring me a name, I'm gonna look at it, but I still, it still has to be through my lens and understand what a Queens player looks like. But I'm not like. Having your coach reach out to me, I'm still not responding to that either. Yeah. Because I just don't have that time to do that. And again, now I, people say you gotta recruit five, six players a year, but to recruit five or six players a year, I only gotta offer about 10. Yeah. So I'm gonna be really focused and intentional on the 10 10 out of 10,000. 20,000 that you might see. Correct. Staff might see. Said. All right. Break this into two answers if you want. Same piece of advice for the high school coach. Club coach that's helping kids get recruited. What advice would you give to them? Don't focus on the recruitment and focus on them getting better dribble passing and shooting and pressuring the basketball. Those four things, can they dribble? Can they pass? Can they shoot? Can they guard the ball? If they can do those three things, they're gonna get, or four things, they're gonna get recruited. Instead, we're worried about, I'm gonna send'em to this camp, I'm gonna go here, I'm gonna go do this, I'm gonna do that. And really getting better is about putting the work in every single day, and waking up and do it again and again. And the issue is, everyone wants to shortcut it. Everyone thinks they can jump the process. You can't. You'll like again, co coaches. There's a reason why successful coaches are successful. They attract good players'cause they continue to develop them. And as a coach, if you continue to develop kids, more kids will come and you can't fake the recruiting if you think you can, the kid will go to the wrong level and get tossed back down. And that's the worst thing that can happen to a kid is they go too high. They get a terrible experience and then now they're on the wayside going down and their confidence is broken. Yeah. So where it could have been the other way around, where they could have got developed and got great confidence. Great opportunity. Figured out who they were and maybe got a chance to go up. Correct? Correct. Yeah. And. In general, there's enough, especially with the internet now, there's enough eyeballs out there. They're gonna get seen. I honestly would rewrite how we do our entire recruiting system. We would a u is broken, they play more games than practice. The development's not there. Kids get hurt'cause they're playing too many games and there's no scouting or strategy involved in those games, which is a part of basketball. So I wish that we'd go closer to the European model. Practice five days, play one, but we're not there because it's a monetary driven system and everyone wants money, everyone wants to get paid, and you don't get paid from practice. And nobody wants to develop the coaches. That's what's great about Europe is they have a certification program. You have to go through the process to be a coach. You have to know how to run those five practices, have to know how to develop the mind and the body and the system and the strategy that goes with it so that you're right. That's where we fail and I'm so thankful that. You said it out loud. Last piece of advice for the parents. What do you want to tell those parents that got that young boy or girl that wants to go to college and play? It's gonna sound similar. Support them in their development and not their exposure and. We're, have them be process orientated about practice and getting better and being coachable, and really just working daily to get better. And the exposure will take care of itself. And then don't be the parent like you're coaching them on the sideline because that turn, it's a huge turnoff. But also the fact that it's just an impossible situation. Honestly, I used to not say this. I used to believe that it's not the kid's fault. I don't worry about the parent. We'll get'em here and it'll be fine. But the parents are still so involved in college now that we have to be careful of who we bring in the program and how their parents are handling things and having parents I'm gonna, I'm gonna shout out to a family on this right now, the Isaiah I, the Henrys, and Isaiah is a freshman. He was highly touted. He actually, his first game this year got a DNP. His parents did not freak out. They did not call me. They believe, they said, and I quote when I ran into them, we believe you. We know you love our son, and he is now playing. He is getting better and better. He is only gonna keep getting better, but that is the right mindset and they didn't overreact. And I just, it's unbelievable to have families like that in our organization. Great stuff, coach. You're wearing a fabulous Santa sweater. I love it. And if for those listening, you're gonna be listening to this in early January, coach and I are talking right before Christmas. So Coach, thank you so much doing this on one of your very few. Hours off from coaching and planning, and thanks for doing this during the holidays, and I wish you and your family and your players and queens all the best this holiday season. It was my pleasure to be on here. And please have like if people have questions, have'em reach out and I think the biggest thing is it this might reach one person or know people and it makes an impact, but if it impacts one person, it made a difference. And I learned so many lessons on my. Coaching journey and have so many people to be thankful for in, in a season where everyone should be thankful in the holiday season. But there's so much to learn and so much growth for me. And if I could give back, but also know that I'm learning from you as well. Coach. I'll tell you, this is why I do this. You've articulated some things today that I've had Hall of Famers on that didn't do as good a job as you have, and just expressing the reality of college sports, what's going on, how we need to take a step back and reevaluate how we're attacking it and how we're going about it. So I really appreciate it. This is gonna be one of those podcasts that's made me a better coach. May be a better leader. May be a better teacher for the kids that I work with. So thanks for doing this, and again, you got a big fan in me. Thank you man. I really appreciate it. Happy holidays and hope we cross paths here soon. Same to you, my friend. Good luck the rest of the way. Thanks Matt. That was Grant Leonard head, men's basketball coach at NCAA Division one Queens University in Charlotte, North Carolina. I really have a lot of respect for coach. I know he's gone through a lot. I went through a similar transition when I took Maryville University from NCAA Division three to NCAA Division two some 16 years ago. As a coach, you work so hard to build a foundational program that can compete with anyone in your division. Coach Leonard has helped create a division two powerhouse at Queens. When your university transitions up a division, you lose all that competitive advantage. You work so hard to create, you have to accept. You're probably gonna lose and lose a lot in those first years of playing at that higher level. That means your job is on the line even more because of something your administration decided to do and that you literally have no control over. That is a tough pill to swallow for any coach because we all wanna win and the world of college athletics rarely gives a coach five to seven years to get over the obstacles that come with that type of change. You're lucky if you get one to two years. So to hear Coach Leonard so eloquently talk about his short and long-term vision, I'm excited for him and for the future of Queen's basketball. I know I'll be cheering for him and the young men in his program, they are already showing signs that they can compete in their conference and even at the higher echelon of Division one, which is a great sign of what's to come. And as always, you can find more tools, resources, and guidance for your recruiting and coaching journey@coachmattrogers.com, including the significant recruiting book and the recruits journal series. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Until next time, stay focused on what you can control. Stay humble and keep chasing significance.