Episode #159: John Baines on Recruiting

 🏀 Competitiveness, Fit, and the Truth About Recruiting | John Baines | Part II

In Part II of Episode 159 of the Significant Recruiting Podcast, Matt Rogers continues his conversation with John Baines, Head Men's Basketball Coach at Elmhurst University, diving deep into the realities of the college basketball recruiting process.

Coach Baines shares what he truly looks for in recruits after decades in the profession — and it’s not just talent. He explains why competitiveness, resilience, communication, and culture fit often matter more than stats or highlight reels.

In this episode, Coach Baines discusses:

• What competitiveness really looks like when watching recruits in the gym
• Why body language and resilience are critical evaluation tools
• How parents and coaches often see recruiting from very different perspectives
• Why recruits must understand their “why” when reaching out to a college program
• The importance of relationships and campus visits in making the right decision
• Why the best recruiting decisions are about fit, not just opportunity

Coach Baines also shares advice for parents navigating the recruiting process and explains how he evaluates whether a player is truly the right fit for the culture he has built at Elmhurst.

If you’re a recruit, parent, or coach trying to understand how college recruiting really works, this episode offers a candid and insightful look from one of Division III basketball’s most respected coaches.

Learn more about John Baines, Head Men's Basketball Coach at Elmhurst University:
https://elmhurstbluejays.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/coaches/john-baines/1092

Subscribe to the This Week in Significant Coaching Newsletter at:
https://coachmattrogers.com

Subscribers receive free access to every podcast episode, the weekly recruiting blog, the Recruit, Coach and Parent Tips of the Week, and the Significant Question of the Week.

Transcript

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on the latest edition of The Significant Coaching Podcast, a recruiting presentation of the coach, Matt Rogers YouTube channel. Available audio only everywhere you get your favorite podcast. I'm your host Matt Rogers. Earlier this week in part one, I sat down with John Baines, the head men's basketball coach at Elmhurst University, and we talked about leadership and culture and what it takes to build a successful program. And boy has he built a successful program. Today in part two, we shift the conversation to the world of college basketball recruiting. Coach Bains shared why competitiveness, resilience, communication, and that little edge that great competitors seem to have are so important to him when he's evaluating players. He also gives honest advice for parents and recruits about finding the right fit, understanding a coach's purpose and building a team and why relationships still matter more than anything in the recruiting process. And if you enjoy conversations like this, make sure you subscribe to this week in Significant coaching newsletter@coachmattrogers.com, so you never miss an episode, a new recruiting or coaching blog, and the weekly question of the week and the weekly recruit coach and parent tip of the week. Every week we share conversations and insights designed to help coaches, recruits, and parents navigate the journey through sports and life. Let's get to part two of my conversation with John Bains head, men's basketball coach at Elmhurst University. Coach Baes just loved our conversation on coaching. Love your perspective on building a program, molding young men and how you guide them. We seem to come back often in that first conversation about the right people and finding those right kids. Let's dive into recruitment. What are some of those things that. After all these years of coaching you've got to have, there's just some things you just you can't even think twice about not having that in a recruit. Yeah. I have to see I have to see the competitiveness of them. Everybody's gonna talk about work ethic and talent. And a lot of those things, and those are all important. They're, it's not like they aren't. But I think there's, for me there's always gotta be a little bit of a competitive edge. every coach is different'cause every coach has their own personalities and what they want and how they do it. And it's digress on that at college and as a college coach, you have to make this decision. I've got a system and I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna find players that fit my system. Or am I gonna go out and I'm gonna just get good players and I'm gonna tailor my system to what those players can do. And I'm more of the latter. I'm just, I'm gonna go out and get competitive guys. And if it's a team of short guys or a team of slow guys, or a team of guys that can shoot, it doesn't matter to me. We're gonna tailor what we're doing to fit their strengths. But I, but you can't not have, you can't have guys that aren't gonna compete for you and and you gotta build that in your practice too. You gotta, everything we do has a winner and loser. We have a big TV in the and every day you come in, you see the stats from yesterday's practice and you see how many wins and losses you had. And we keep track if you had the most wins for a week you get to pick music on Monday. For that we're listening to for practice. I just feel like you have to put competition first with guys, and you gotta go out and recruit those guys that want that. They strive for that. They really want to compete. I'm gonna put your feet to the fire here. What does that look like when you're in a gym? You're in a, you're in a tournament gym, you're watching a bunch of high schools, kids play in the summer. Yeah. What does competitiveness really look like to you? What do they do whenever they're out? So many. That's the thing. You can't get on YouTube films and highlight film. Yeah. And all this stuff. When they come out of the game, do they have bad body language or are they the guy that's talking to his team out on the floor? And if they're, maybe they're not a talker, maybe they're a quiet guy, but are they sitting there and they're thinking about what they're gonna do when they get back in there and I think you look at all that stuff I like the guys that. Can move on to the next play when they screw up on the floor, because that tells me you got a pretty competitive, resilient guy that he's strong enough maybe not perfect, but he's strong enough that he can move on to the next one and he can just, he can keep playing for you. There's that word again. Yeah. Resilience word. Yeah. That resilient. Yeah. Maybe that's it. I it's funny, you, I had this little project probably four or five years ago where, I asked I bet you I asked about eight of my closest coaching friends to tell me about what they think about my coaching and the program and the players we recruit and everything. Because you have an idea in your head what you're, what I think I'm getting and doing. But your friends are gonna tell you exactly right. They're gonna tell you the truth. I bet you 95% of what they said is what I thought. So I was like, okay, first of all, that's good because I, what I'm thinking and what's going on are probably very same. The same. And then they all wrote down, the reason I bring this up they're like, John, almost all of'em wrote, you always seem to get guys that have just a little bit of an edge to you. And I don't know if what that, that edge is. Is it is the guy being a prick or is the guy being too, does he mix it up too much or. That may be different for everybody, but you know what? I was sitting there going, you're right. I go and I watch a guy and there's two guys and there's one guy that I just see I'd real, he's gonna go to the wall for me if they get that, if that dude. And so I'm like, that's the guy that I guess has that edge. And as a coach, I love it. And some guys don't coach that very well. I think I have done that well. So I, maybe I look for it. I'm with you. I used to tell my staff I knew they were going out in the road. I'd say, bring me home a junkyard dog. Yeah, I want to, I want 15 junkyard dogs. Gimme that edge because I know why your friends were telling you that. Because if they're, if you've got a guy that's got that edge if that scares you, you don't know how to scouting, how to scout them you don't know how to prep for'em, because it's not, we gotta take away his jumper or we gotta block him out. It's. This guy is never gonna quit. He's there's no stop that demoralizing for the other team. I said when the other we spent so much time getting guys to talk, yeah. They echo everything we do. I I'm constantly especially this generation with their phones and everything, you've gotta get them to communicate and talk a lot. Isn't it demoralizing for the other team when the other team just never stops talking? Huge. And it's just, I said, if you've got a guy that's just continually playing hard and talking and going, and then it's just, or the other team just I just get worn down by that. And sometimes I've noticed that with other teams, they just get worn down. They do. But if you don't you never get there unless you're coaching it every, it's gotta be your practice every day. It's gotta be who you're not gonna get that, okay, it's Tuesday. We're gonna we're gonna Carthage, we're gonna be that team today. It's gotta be every stinking day. It is. And I, it echoing became something that came from a coach I worked for. It's funny, all my assistants that have become head coaches all told me we're not gonna echo whenever I get my own program. And then I laugh, they, I go watch'em and they're, their teams are echoing. And That's right. And and I'm just I'm kinda laughing. I'm like guys I think I told you this, when you're an assistant, we, they're not gonna talk unless we make them talk. That's right. And and when they do, it's gonna be good for us. This generation struggles with that.'cause they don't have to talk that way anymore. I I work with recruits and I can't tell you how many times, probably nine outta 10, I'll ask a kid if they've ever left a voice message and they're like, yeah, no I've never, you're 18 years old and you've never left a voice message for someone. Yeah. To me that just I can't even imagine a world where I haven't verbally left something for somebody to know that. I need them to call me back. It's a text it's an email. Even an email is gone. How do we find those kids? And maybe the better question is, how does high school coaches develop that? To make their kids ready for that next level to even get them ready for division three, which people call the lowest level. It's usually the people that have never watched us play it and coach at the D three level. How do high school coaches develop that with these kids that have no, no desire, no history of it? Yeah, there's a lot of things. We have it's a running. Policy in our program, when we're on team time, there's no phones. Yeah. And that's not to say like on a charter bus, they can because they were listening to music on their phone. But yeah, when we go into a restaurant and we're gonna go eat, you leave your phone because this is our time to talk with everybody, yeah. And it's fleet. You're never gonna have that. You probably, it's hard for get three people to go play golf on a Sunday right now. Instead think about getting 20 guys together to go play basketball together. You're never gonna have that opportunity again. And so when you're there, you gotta you gotta appreciate that. And I think you start talking about that kinda stuff. The other thing sounds corny, but how many coaches really listen? We talk a lot because we're in charge and they think, you think everybody needs direction? How many times do we just say, I'm going to sit and listen to you tell me what we should be doing. I'm gonna take notes. If I have a 45 minute meeting with a guy in the postseason, I'm gonna talk for five minutes of that thing. I'm gonna ask a ton of questions. And even how about in the huddles? Guys, what do you want? What do you like, what do you think we should be doing here? And anything you'd change. Some coaches feel like that's I can't take I can't let them do that. Why not? Who cares? Who gets the credit? Listen to what's going on. And then. When I say that, it's because, now they're gonna talk. What if your coach is telling you, what do you think? And then he actually wants to listen to you. You're gonna start talking. If I'm a coach that's just yapping all the time and never letting those guys think and talk, they're not. They're just gonna be sitting there quiet. So I think part of this is just kind sometimes a mindset of. You've gotta let your players express themselves somewhat and then then you're going to get them to start talking to each other. Isn't that the truth? The opportunity that we create is what builds that and grows that. If we don't create that opportunity, it may not ever happen the way we want it to. Yeah, and that's, and like I said I know I talked to you before about like at practice, there's times where we'll say, Hey, coaches don't go into that huddle, and they gotta figure that out. I've actually said to the players, if you want a timeout at practice with your team, call it Coach. Can I get, I need a timeout. Okay, timeout White says they want a timeout. And they get them, they get that together themselves. And I think you have to cultivate that. If you don't they're always gonna be looking to you to talk and they're never going to do it themselves. Isn't that amazing that we forget that sometimes. Just that comment that you gave your team, if you need it, call it, but let's be purposeful. Let's be purposeful while we're calling it. The other one that I think coaches we sometimes don't let conflict with the players, yeah. It, that's the. Taboo thing. We don't want our players fighting and whatever. There has to be some conflict. And I guess I'll use this example. I'm I've been divorced and I remember going to counseling and the counselor said, what do you guys fight about? And I said I said don't I buy anything? I'm not confrontational. She's not confrontational. I said, we're we actually coexist. It's fine. I said We shouldn't be married. But, yeah, but we, and she goes there's your problem. She goes, if you never have anything to work through Yeah. And talk about, you're never going to grow as a couple as a and the same thing goes for a team. If you never talk about anything, or somebody doesn't just push a guy and say, Hey you're not playing hard enough. And then he says I'm playing hard enough, whatever. And if you're the coach that just shuts that down and says, we're not doing that here that's not what we do. They never fight through that stuff. Instead, why don't you pull those guys aside and say what's your beef with him? What's your beef with him? And let's talk about it and. Usually, sometimes, not always, but sometimes they're like, yeah, I, you're right man. I and then they work through it now you got a couple of guys that are a little bit closer to each other because they work through something like that. And don't shut that down because that's part of that process. And I think as coaches, we shut it down sometimes, and I've done this and it's healthy. It's un, it's not, look, doesn't look healthy, but it is. It's modeling that failure doesn't have to be the end. Failure can be the beginning, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's, that's, yeah. That's how you work through stuff. Yeah. I love that. It's funny I laugh because I I love my wife and we have a great life together and when I met her, she. She's, she was a confrontational person. And I said, she always asked me what did love about me? And I said, I just knew I needed somebody that I could have a good fight with. And and we don't fight very much, but I it. And she was just like, great, that's what you saw in me. And I'm like, yeah, I know. But, but she's my salsa and I'm her sour cream. Yeah, absolutely. I could see that. And my marriage is the same way. What I love is I can look back at all the years where the fighting turned into another fight or something something worse. And now the fight is. Over, and we don't even know it's over. We're already talking about who's picking up the kids at school or who's making dinner, or we gotta get this bill paid. It's just we move on because we know it's, again, it's, we had the fight, now it's over. It's not the, it's not gonna define us, so it. I love that you're creating that in your environment with your players.'cause it is, it's again, it's teaching them how to be adults. It's teaching them how to be young men the way we want them to be when they leave us. Yep. Yep. They do. Coach, I want to just a couple questions about recruiting.'cause I really want your advice for all the families and the parents that listen to this. Sure. Were, when does recruiting start for you? When do you start evaluating in terms of their age, and then how does that project everybody's different. That, one of the things about the division three level is we got a lot of different academic profiles. The University of Chicago and the Wisconsin State School and Elmhurst are three completely different things. Yes. And so timelines and. And admissions processes and all the, and financial aid and all of it is all just different. So I would say for me. We'll start with juniors, but we're not really going until they're seniors. And starting in the fall. But that's our timeline. That's everybody's a little different. You're evaluating junior year to create a list and then senior year the conversations really start. Yeah. Okay. And you, they visit campus and they do all that kinda stuff. I don't, we don't bring a lot of guys in the summer. I don't like that as much. Unless they're from outta state and they have to come in at that time. The reason I don't is because I really put a big emphasis on the relationship piece with a player. And if they don't meet our players and they don't spend time with our players, number one they don't get the, probably the most important aspect of our program because they're not seeing it. And number two, I want the input from our players on what they like about the guy. Some, there will be times where the guys will say, what'd you think about? Andy or whatever, and they kinda give me the, no, I don't like him. Yeah. And I'm like, okay we're not gonna recruit him. Yeah. Because if we don't like him and you don't like him, you don't wanna play with him. And sometimes you get the thumbs up, they're like, coach, I like that dude. He we think he can play they usually, it's Hey, I think he's talented. And then we could really he's pretty cool. We like him. And so I think. That's why we don't ever bring anybody over in the summer too much. But other than that, I think everybody's on their own timelines. I'd say the one thing, I guess if I had advice for parents, and I've done a lot of this talking at clinics and Cam, you have the parents there. Yep. Yep. Here's something that I, no one seems to ever say. It's always like they don't wanna say it'cause it sounds rude, but. Think about you as a parent, you're, you go to the high school games, right? You're, you go to all the high school games, you wear the swag you're all into it. Whatever, your son graduates and they're done. You don't start, you don't keep going to the high school games, right? You might go to one or two, but you don't go every night. You know the reason you're going is because your playing there and that's the truth and it's not, that's not a negative thing. I've got kids. That's, I. I'm not going to other little 11-year-old volleyball games be unless my daughter's playing. That's right. And so you have a bias towards your son to play. And that's your main focus. You hope the team wins, but really you're looking at your son. Okay. And because that's your kid, flip it to me. I'm the coach I'm I'm putting together good teams. That's what I get paid to do. And my emphasis has to be that, that on the same thing, that doesn't mean I don't want your son to do well, but my emphasis has to be on the whole thing. And I hope that your son positive part of that. But that's the secondary part for me. Like the secondary part for you is the team. And as long as we both have an understanding of that, we'll be fine. But sometimes the parents have the issue where. They forget that my job is for the team and it's not for their kid. And I also have to do the same thing as a coach. When a parent calls me up, I have to almost turn my brain. It's hard and say, listen, they're not trying to be rude. They just don't see the team as the number one thing here. They're thinking about their kid because that's, they're the parent. That's what they're trained to do. And so let's all, whenever you're going through the recruiting process, let's understand that. Okay. Let's have that out on the table and I'm gonna do the best I can for your kid. I'm gonna try to make this an awesome experience for them, but not at the detriment of the team. The team always comes first. Yep. It's a, you've got a puzzle that you've put together, you've graduated a couple pieces of that. Your kid might be a great puzzle piece, but they may not fit your puzzle. At overs. They may not fit what you're looking for, even though they were all conference and great stats and had a great career, they may not fit what you're trying to put together. You just don't need that piece. I think that's a great anecdote, coach. It's a great analogy for how parents need to see through this. I would say, oh, I'm sorry. No, go ahead. No, I wanna hear it. Yeah. The other thing that I think. With, when you're going through recruiting processes and you're a parent and you're, or you're that player and you're going through that process I like, I laugh. You you're getting, don't send your son to go play for a coach that you're not really in love with or with a team that you're not really in love with. And I laugh, I said, when your kid was seven. Did you hire a bad babysitter and just wing it? Did you say, I don't know if this kid knows anything he may burn the house down, but you know what, let's go on that date anyway and let's just leave him. And you would never do that. So why would you say they're giving us a scholarship and we're gonna go because they're giving us money. If you don't like the coach, do you think it's gonna go right? It's not. And think about it like that. When you're picking the place that your kid's gonna go play, and this is why we have so many people transfer the, at the high level, it's money with the NIL stuff. But at our level, the reason people transfer is'cause they're disillusioned by what's going on in the program. You gotta be a better evaluator of where you're sending your kid. Have you gotten good at figuring that out and who's telling you the truth when you're recruiting them and who's who's putting up the facade of this is who I am and then they get there and they're not that kid. I think I'm getting better at it, I think for me now, it's, I know what a. It sounds quick what an Elmhurst guy looks like and who's gonna really enjoy the experience. And I think as you were we're talking here I lay it all out there. I'm a relationship guy. We're gonna be doing leadership stuff. We're gonna be doing a lot of stuff off the court. You're gonna be coming over to my house. If you don't like that stuff, you won't like it here. Yeah. I'm gonna throw that at you, and if you do like it, then I bet you're gonna have a blast. And I think you gotta, I put it out there for'em so I can see what they're gonna say about it. Yeah, it just, their facial expression and how they absorb that information for a lot of kids, I'm sure that's just, oh yes. I've been waiting for somebody to tell me they're gonna develop me and I'm gonna have a relationship with my coach. I didn't have a relationship with my high school coach he, it was basketball and do what we're, do what you're told. Show up and shut up. So I would've dreamed for a coach like you that was gonna talk to me and care about me, and involve me and engage me. You know what it's really funny. I ask, I, I did a clinic not too long ago and I was asking, there's some college coaches in there, and I said, when's the last time you wrote a note to one of your guys on your team? Not a text, but you wrote a note you left a note in their locker or whatever which I do a lot. Me too. I did too. And so you said, we're gonna recruit you and I'm gonna send you all this stuff and I'm gonna constantly be talking to you. And then the minute they get here, now you're a player and I'm not gonna talk to you like that again. That's right. And for me, the recruiting piece is. I'm not just recruiting you to get you here, I'm also recruiting you to, to stay here and to be good. Yeah. And you're a, you're, you do recruiting service stuff for guys and help'em out. That'll be, sometimes I'll be like, okay I appreciate the help in getting the guy there, but I also need to know that he's gonna stay here and be good for us. Absolutely. And so, those are two different things, but they're all part of recruiting. That's right. If a kid wants to play for you and they're interested in going to Elmhurst and they've done their research what do you want them to do to reach out to you? How do you want them to contact you? Oh, I, we get all kinds of stuff shoot me the text hit me on the DM and email me. But you always want film. You always wanna see a guy. The first thing I guess I'll always ask a guy is, why us? You know what, tell me. Is it because you wanna be in Chicagoland? Is it because you like our business program? Is it'cause you're looking for a place that values a relationship or you know what is it is? I need to know why. You're wanting to look at it and then and then that's when we start talking. And that's really why I start. One of the reasons I started this, I want the humanity people to understand the humanity of who you are as a coach. Because it's easy to say, Albert's got a great business program. I wanna live in Chicago. It's got a great history, you win. But I wanna play for somebody like you. I wanna I connect you, I listen to you, I watch you. I want more Coach baes. And I think that's really. A big part that's missing for parents and kids is they really don't know who you are till they get to your campus. Or it's even on a phone conversation. I get to know your tone and things like that, but until I get to sit in front of you and listen to your philosophy and listen to who you are, it's hard for me to know which is right and which is wrong for me as a recruiter, me as a parent. I, yeah, you're right. You've gotta spend real time with somebody and you're talking about it guys on their phones texting you're not gonna get, you're not gonna get the feel for whether I'm the right coach for you on a text. No. And and I don't think a parent's gonna get that if they're not on a visit with their son either. And they you gotta see yourself and envision yourself in a uniform playing for me and playing for us. And you gotta get that on a visit. There's so much generic communication that comes out of a coach's office to recruits a lot of coaches it's about the school, it's about our history. How does a kid know that you want them, if it's a text or a DM or an email? How do, if it comes from you or your staff, how do they know that you're really interested in them? We're specific. I say, Hey, Matt. You're an awesome dude. You'd be a great blue jay. That's generic to me. Okay. Matt, you put on that blue shirt. I could tell right away you wanted to talk to me. You're personable. You got a smile. I you're the type of person that you're gonna, you're gonna love our team and I can and so if I'm specific with it and I know why you're going to fit in here. That recruit, he knows that he gets that. And I think that's how you wade through all the generic stuff of all the college coaches is is this guy being real? Yeah. He's being real because he's gonna tell me exactly why he likes my game, and likes and wants me to play for him. Yeah. Yeah. Abs, absolutely. It's, it's just, it's the right way to do it. And it's if you're not doing it that way I don't I, it's like you're wasting your time as a coach if you're not being specific. Yeah, it is. And I want them, I ask them some tough questions sometimes. Yeah. What are you working on that's not in your life, that's not basketball related but I'll also ask stuff like, okay, I'm coaching you. Okay. Tell me why you think that I can push the right buttons to get you to become an all league player. Yeah. If you can't tell me why, then you don't you're not gonna wanna play for me, if you say, coach I talk to you and I get pumped up. I wanna go down on the gun and shoot. And I say, okay, you I guess I'm motivating to you. Okay, then that's a good reason to come play for a guy. Absolutely. And so you put it in their context and and so many co college coaches talk about their programs and rightfully that's what you do. I, this is the God's honest truth. I don't talk about winning very much. Yeah. And whenever guys come on visits because that's just a residual thing that happens when you have a good, when you have good guys. Yeah. I think I do. I try to really. Think about putting on that the shoes of the recruit and what they're looking for. How many times does a college coach actually ask you what your goals are? Tell me what your goals are. And I'm not talking just, I wanna be an all league player. I wanna play overseas. Academically what do you want your body to look like when you're, by the time you were a sophomore what did, do you what do you want? And I don't think a lot of college coaches ask that enough. They talk about their programs and they talk about how they wanna win, and they talk about if a guy can really shoot the ball, but they don't talk about what are the goals of the of the person. Yeah. I it's so smart and it's so logical. It's so practical and it's the reason you've got. At least 13 more years in you where you're gonna have this run. And I've got a 9-year-old. I'm gonna be coaching forever. That's good. That's good. They'll be better before for it. Just so you know, I put the blue shirt on so you wouldn't look at my jump shot. So it was my way. We all have our strength, we all have strengths. I can still pass it, coach, I can still make it right. Oh, coach Bates, it's been an honor, man. I hope you don't mind if I call you a friend. This has been pure joy for me. I'm gonna get to Chicago one of these years and just come in and sit in a practice if you'll let me. But please do. I'll be cheering for you and the Blue Jays and if I can ever help you or any of your guys, don't be afraid to holler. Will do. And this has been awesome. I always love talking, so have a great one. Thanks man. That wraps up another great conversation with Coach John Bains head, men's basketball coach at Division three, Elmhurst University. Coach Bains gave us a great look inside the recruiting process from a college coach's perspective, what competitiveness really looks like, why relationships matter during that recruiting journey, and why the right fit between a recruit and a program is so important. For recruits and parents listening today, remember that coaches are building teams. They're looking for competitors, people who communicate, people who are resilient, and people who generally want to be a part of the culture they're building at that particular school. If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure you subscribe to this week in Significant coaching newsletter@coachmattrogers.com. When you subscribe, you'll get free access to every podcast episode, the weekly recruiting blog, the recruit coach, and parent tips of the week, and our new significant question of the week. These tools are all designed to help families and coaches navigate the recruiting journey with more confidence and perspective. Until next time, stay focused on what you can control. Stay humble and keep chasing significance.