Episode #173: David Arseneault on Recruiting

🏀 Ep. 173: Recruiting for Grinnell’s System Basketball | David Arseneault Jr. 

David Arseneault Jr., Head Men’s Basketball Coach at Grinnell College, returns for Part II of this conversation on the Significant Recruiting Podcast.

In this episode, we focus on recruiting for speed in Grinnell’s System basketball—what it takes to play in a program built on pace, constant movement, and decision-making under pressure.

David breaks down the type of player who thrives, how roles and minutes are defined, and why fit matters more than talent alone. We also discuss communication with coaches, academic expectations, and how recruits and families should think about choosing a program that operates very differently from traditional college basketball.

If you’re a recruit, parent, or coach trying to understand what it really means to play fast—and whether you’re built for it—this conversation will help you think about the process in a more intentional way.

🎧 Listen: coachmattrogers.com/podcast
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Transcript

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On the latest edition of the Significant Coaching Podcast, a recruiting presentation of the Coach Matt Rogers YouTube channel, available audio only everywhere you get your favorite podcasts. I'm your host, Matt Rogers. This is part two of my conversation with David Arseneault Jr., head men's basketball coach at NCAA Division III Grinnell College. In part one, we broke down the fast-paced, high-intensity offense and defensive basketball system that Grinnell has run for the better part of 40 years, how it works, how it's taught, and the level of discipline it takes to play that fast. Today, in part two of our conversation, we shift to recruiting. What does it really take to play at a place like Grinnell? What kind of player actually thrives in a system built on pace, trust, and constant movement? And how should recruits and families think about fit when the experience looks very different from traditional programs? David gives great perspective on communication, expectations, academics, and the reality of stepping into a program where minutes are earned differently, roles are defined differently, and success looks different. If you're a recruit, a parent, or a coach trying to better understand how to find the right fit, this conversation will help you think about it in a more intentional way. All right, here's part two with David Arseneault Jr. Coach Arsenault, if anybody listened to part one, and I hope everybody goes back and listens'cause it was so good. If you're a basketball coach and you wanna understand the system a little bit better and the details and the intangibles and the fun that goes in with coaching the way you coach, please go back and wa- and listen and/or watch. But what I loved about it is you have a calmness when you're talking about it,'cause you understand it so well. And I think that's really what people that run the system... And I get calls all the time, and I'm sure you do. People go,"I always get this," and maybe you get this too,"Matt, I don't have any talent this year, so I'm thinking about running the system." And I always go,"Well, why would you wait till you don't have any talent to run the system?" Why is that mindset? Do you get that question? I, I get that question a lot. Um, you know, and I, I think that for anybody that's, like, wanting to adopt it, first of all, I think it's a great way to play. Um- Yeah there are so many built-in advantages, uh- Mm-hmm that I touched on in, in, in part one, but I, I think that my... O- one of the first things that I'll always say to people is that you're gonna have to, uh, uh, adjust it to your set of circumstances, you know? Like, the way that we're running it at Grinnell, I mean, it's even different from the way that we ran it at Grinnell 10 years ago or 20 years ago or 30 years ago. Yeah. Like, the way that I had to run it, um, when I was in the D League or the now G League, it was, it was different than what I'm doing at Grinnell. And I'm actually curious to hear from you, coach, about, like, different levels or men versus women or, or, or, or boys, girls, high school level, like some of the differences maybe that you felt, uh, as, as, as you were running it. Well, it's, it's a great question because I ran at D III and we had success with it. I ran at the high school, won a state championship with it and we did it with 10 kids. We had five that could really play, but we did minute and a half rotations, 90 second rotations, and we won a state championship with it. Now, when I transitioned Maryville from Division III to Division II and we went into the Great Lakes Valley, then it was eye-opening because all of a sudden everybody's 6'4" to 6'9", everybody's a great athlete. So we really had to adapt the system when we got to DII the women was a blast, and you'll love this. I got the women at La Verne. Yeah. We had... I think we had five games the first year over 100 points. Oh. Which was really hard'cause we were really small. I think we, our back court was 5'1", 5'2". And we wouldn't have anybody bigger than 5'10", so we really... The back end of the press was really hard for us. But we hit 26 threes and broke the NCAA record. I think if you go to the record books, you'll still see University of La Verne, I think, in the top 20 three-point games in the history of college basketball Division III. I think we're still 10 of the top 20. And it was all because of you and your dad. Y- you still use your five statistical points? We know them. I'm not sure that they have been as great of an emphasis still- Yeah as what my dad would like me to have them be. Well, and, and I had to adapt them, too, with the women. Yeah. You know? You, there's just certain things you got, like, okay, we, this is almost like we need a six point, or we need to drop it down to four, and we gotta be really good at these four. So there's always- Yeah that change. But the women really bought into it when we were healthy, when we had numbers, when, you know, we had 11, 12 girls that could do it. But we had a lot of fun that year. That's awesome. When you, when you ran it with, with... When you said you ran it with, uh, 10 people. Yeah. You... Where, where were you then? And, like, I'm, I'm, I'm just anxious to know, like, how did you, how did you... You were still playing in groups? How'd you mix the groups? Yeah. Did you make even groups, or would you have, like, one superstar group, one just go out there and fly around and do something crazy group? It was a high school, team in Missouri. Yeah. Um, and we were trying to mix it up. So we had, we had five kids that were legit college basketball players. Legit. O- one played at Davidson, one played at Tampa, one played at Valparaiso. I mean, this was a really good five. And, and I mean the second five were just average kids, average high school players at best. So the second year, I said,"We're gonna let those five play together, and we're gonna let those other five... We're gonna un- make sure they understand their role." They're still shooting when they're open, but they've gotta get us steals. They've gotta keep the pressure up. They've got, they've gotta play defense like their hair's on fire. And we literally played the entire year with 10 kids. Everybody played at least, I wanna say at least eight to 10 minutes a game. But that mentality where the starters just knew, we're gonna get a minute and a half to two minutes, and we know we're gonna get a minute breather. We know we're gonna get 60 to 90 seconds breather. And what it did for us is when they bought into that, when they bought in, they were coming out every 90 to, 90 to 120 seconds. All of a sudden they started to realize that in the last quarter they were fresh and the starters on the other team were exhausted. Mm. And it was all of a sudden it was, it was men against boys because we were in s- Oh better shape and so much healthier. Yeah. Well, credit, credit to you for getting th- like, the buy-in. Because that is one of the other challenges. It's like- Yeah you know, if, if your, if your top one or two players that would normally be playing 38 minutes out of 40 or, or- Yeah 30 out of 32 minutes aren't bought in, uh, it's, it's gonna be a problem. It's trouble. But if they are bought in, then the rest of the guys are looking at it like,"Well, geez, if, if he's bought in, how, what do I have to complain about? I'm not, I can't..." You know? Yeah. And so credit to you for, for figuring that out and, and getting the, the starters especially, like, on board with, with wanting to do that. You know what, Coach? I think having the rough mental, emotional season we had the year before,'cause we didn't run the system per se the year before. We just tried to, you know... We still ran a half-court offense. We just tried to play fast, get the ball up the floor, and we pressed a little bit. But we decided to go all in. But I think the first year, having the failure and the heartache and kind of the battle we were having with attitudes and egos, I think that opened the door where we could have the conversation with some of those kids that were great players, saying,"Listen, if you'll sacrifice a little bit." Mm-hmm."If you'll be the one that buys into this..." You know, we talked to them from the beginning. We think we have the ability to win a state championship. We have the ability to be the best team in the state, but if you're not gonna buy in, then it's not worth us doing it this way. Then we gotta find somewhere else. So in that group of kids, there was three senior guards that all played D1, D2, D2. When they bought in and said,"Okay, let's do it." And we said,"We're probably gonna get you more shots each. You're gonna get more accolades." And two of them were first team all-state and the s- and the point guard was second team all-state. So, and, and they didn't get anything close to that recognition their junior year. But when they decided,"Okay, we don't wanna feel like this anymore"- Yeah that's when it, that's when it changed. That's awesome we just had a big banquet. It was our 25th anniversary of winning the state. We all got together for the first time in 25 years. They're all in their 40s now and all have kids and jobs and that's all they could talk about is how cool it was that all 10 of them got to play. All 10 of them ha- made an impact. All 10 of them won a game for us somehow so that's, that's what's cool about what you do. Is how many, how many kids at some of these, some of these schools that are the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th guy on the bench can say,"I contributed to us winning a conference championship or going to the national tournament"? Right. Very few of them can do that, right? Yeah. You don't have a guy on your roster that can't say that. Yeah, yeah. Right? No. No, I mean, it's, it is, it's, yeah, just, just getting in early in the game and, and you can, you can affect the outcome you know, as the, as the 17th man, you can affect the outcome of this game. Pretty fun. I wanna get into recruiting with you because it's, it's a, i- it's, recruiting has changed so much. And it's, it's, it has and it hasn't. People ask me that, you know,"What's changed in 10 years?" I go, it still comes down to relationships and it still comes down to can you play, and does the coach and you see eye to eye, you know? Mm-hmm. It's, it's still the end of the day, it has to be that way. For you, it's, it's a little bit different because you've got some real pluses where you can tell freshmen,"I'm bringing you in, you know, you're gonna be one of 18, and we think you can come in and play right away." And very few freshmen get that. Not that you're guaranteeing anything, but there's also"You're really great. We love you. We think you're a huge difference maker, but you might only get 11, 12 minutes a game." Where do you sit with that when you're talking to kids? Where's the reality for you? Yeah. Um, no, you're, you're, you're right. Like, I think just, just even specifically as it relates to the basketball, it's gonna take somebody that's, that's willing to, to, to play the game a little different way, you know? And, and, um- We do, we do frequently play guys earlier than, in their career than, than, than a lot of other programs. Uh, we also probably play our best players less minutes than anybody else in the country. Yeah. And, um, talking to them about what does it look like. You know, the, the... If I'm trying to describe our, our system in a sentence, defensively especially, it's like, well, imagine your team's down by eight points with a minute left in the game and you're not allowed to intentionally foul, how do you have to play? And now how would you play on offense? And we're kinda trying to do the same thing. And so, I mean, there, there is some appeal to that. I think that with the way that especially AU basketball is played, it's played in a more free-flowing style, you know, uh, uh, now more than ever, and it's up and down a lot more than ever. Uh, you know, I think our press is still probably just never letting the other team run a set play is still a little bit unique. Um, some... A lot of teams will still press, but they're probably back into some type of half-court defense. And so, um, no, there, there are, there are pluses, there are minuses. I mean, we talk to guys a lot about, you know, the impact that they can have right away. Um, and just like any school, there are, there are pluses and, and, and minuses. Our, our location i- is sometimes challenging. We're located in central Iowa, where there are corn fields three miles any direction. And, uh, at the same time, you know, we have state-of-the-art facilities. There are so few distractions. I guarantee you the doors to the gym right now, we could walk down the hall, are unlocked, and the basketballs are probably in there, you know? Yeah. And, and, um, the school itself, it's one of the top-ranked liberal arts colleges in, in the entire country. I think- Sure currently number, ranked number 13, uh, for liberal arts colleges, which is, which is, uh, again, both good and bad as it relates to the recruiting. It's great because I have, um, you know, students that are looking to go to one of those types of institutions. You know, it, it, it narrows down the market and it, and it puts us in the conversation. At the same time, about the first thing that I have to look at when I'm recruiting somebody is their, is their grades and possibly their test score, and how well they're doing in the classes that they're taking, you know? And so, um, it, it's... We, this past year, we did not have a single player on our roster from the state of Iowa, which meant that- Wow. That's tough you know, as I was... a- as we were recruiting, you know, for that class, I was spending time going to a lot of high academic camps. Um, and I don't often get a chance to see guys play live during their high school season, which makes the evaluation a little bit more challenging. Um, but in large part for us, you know, finding guys that are exceptional in one area and can do something else pretty well is usually a sign of somebody that's gonna be able to make an immediate impact for our program. You know, and I think that- Yeah that, um, well-rounded players can still absolutely help our program, but I, I think that, that the well-rounded nature, because we're playing so many guys and, and maybe role specific with the groups that we're formulating, you know, really being excellent in one area is gonna, is gonna help, help a group. You know? It's gonna help a group. If you are just the best offensive rebounder on the face of the planet, that's gonna help a group, and a lot of guys are gonna wanna play with you. You know? And, and, and, um, you know, so for us as we're kind of evaluating and looking at things, that's, that's I guess a little bit about our process. Where are you guys at now with GPA and ACT? What's kind of the minimum you can get, get in the door these days? Yeah, so we are, we're currently test optional. You know, I think that if you look at, like, the, the average or, or, or the middle 50% or whatever, however they wanna phrase it, our average ACT is around 32. You know? And, and- It's always been high. Yeah um, you know, in terms of GPA, I think that it's, it's a little bit more gonna be about the classes that you're taking, that we're looking at, we're looking at guys that are challenging themselves, taking AP classes, honors classes, and then how well are they doing in those classes. Yeah. Your, your admissions has a little bit of flexibility there, and you, I'm sure you have a little bit of flexibility in, in how you can go about recruiting then. Yeah, and we, we have a, a great process where we're able to kind of just, just, um, get a look i- at, at somebody early on through our admission office so that c- we can see if they're gonna be a competitive candidate for admission. And it's not gonna make any guarantee, but it's gonna, it's just gonna help, help me and help our staff and help our coaches just, just figure out, you know, who is, is, uh, gonna be a competitive applicant versus, versus who's maybe not going to be. I just talked to the staff at MIT a while back and- Yeah and they basically said the same thing. They said,"We love it when freshmen and sophomores reach out to us, because it gives us then time to kind of educate them on, like,'Hey, to get in the door here, this is, this is what these next two or three years need to look like.'" Do you appreciate that too, when a freshman or a sophomore that is thinking about playing for you or interested in you kind of sends you some film and, and you get to learn about them early? I think outreach at any time is great, and we are usually... You know, like, we've been... We, we finished up our recruiting process for 2026 high school graduates back in about November. Yeah. You know? And, and, and at least all of our commitments came around that time. And so, um, earlier the better for sure, just in terms of, like, getting your name out there, reaching out to schools. You know, I think at times, like, what's gonna... I- it might take a little while, especially for freshmen or sophomores, to see how people develop physically and how they grow and how their game progresses, but at least making that connection and getting on somebody's radar early on is, is gonna be beneficial. How in the heck do you watch film? Because you're not seeing a lot of system kids on film when, when you get it. You don't get a chance to watch kids live a whole lot, so film has to be almost 80% of what you're, where you start. What are you looking at with film, and how are you translating that to, to what you wanna be able to do with them? Yeah, I think I'm, I'm, I'm looking at, um, you know, to start with, how, how hard somebody's playing. Yeah. You know? And, and, and that, you know, that's not typically gonna show up necessarily in a highlight film. Um, sometimes it c- it can though. And, and then after that, I'm, I'm, when I'm looking at somebody's, like, shooting stroke, knowing how we like to play and we wanna take 63 point shot attempts per game, and other teams wanna stop us from taking 63 point shot attempts per game. That's right. It's, I, I wanna look at somebody's shooting stroke and their mechanics just in, in terms of how quick their release is. Yeah. You know, and are they gonna be able to get it off? How's that gonna translate to our level or a little deeper three-point line? Is this something that we could just, oh, we just need to make a simple change maybe with their footwork or something like that. Mm-hmm. So I think that, that evaluating their shooting stroke, evaluating how hard they're playing, um, and then just starting to think about what position they might be able to play in our play. Positions sometimes, right? What's that? Multiple positions too, right? Right, right, right. Like the one, like the one guy that I was like,"Hey, y- you can play somewhere. I don't know where yet." That's right. You know? And, and, you know, and I think that just comes with, like, how they're moving on the court or, or what their lateral, lateral quickness looks like or, you know, uh, how they're able to handle the ball and play multiple guard positions, like all those things. So, so just taking a look at the highlight tapes, taking a look at some full game film, spending time talking with their high school coach or their AU coach about kind of their mindset and their mentality and, and, and getting feedback that way is...'Cause I'm not gonna get a chance to see it live in person unless it's over one of these summer camps where there might be 250 kids there, and I might make a note that I like somebody, but the amount of time that I've spent watching them when I'm trying to watch everybody is, is, is maybe not as great as- Right as what some other schools are able to do. I remember, um, one of the Soderberg, one, one of the Soderb- you know, Brad Soderberg and his family. Yeah. I remember watching, going up to Wisconsin, and I was recruiting his point guard. Mm-hmm. And I sat there and it's just, it was so slow. I think they won the game, like, 41 to 38. And the kid- No shot clock no shot clock. Yeah. The kid had to walk the ball up the court. You know, they ran their o- uh, they were running the swing or the flex or something, and it was just... I was just like... And, and I was trying to figure out who this kid... I loved his ability to cr- control the ball, and I loved his confidence, and he had, he had a little swagger to him, but the, the offense was just so slow. And I was like,"Okay, he's, he can play point guard for me. We're gonna have to teach him how to play faster." By the time he was a sophomore, he was my starting shooting guard. It, it, it was like, it was like we took off the nun's habit and said,"Go have a party." Sure. He needed to play fast. He, he, he wa- he was in the wrong position, he was at the wrong pace. And once we realized he was a shooting guard and could really go and could really shoot and had a motor, it was like everything changed for our program and everything changed for him. Yeah So that, that's always the hard part for watching film for me,'cause their coach or their system they're playing in may not be suitable for them. Sure. It may not be their best fit. Sure. We had a g- we had a guy last year, he graduated last year. I don't think he'd be mad at me for telling this story, so I'm gonna tell it anyway. And he would, uh, you know, his, his, his, his freshman year at Grinnell, I mean, he m- he was... I, I eventually had to just sit him down next to me on the bench. I tried, uh, many ways to get him to play a little bit more defense or harder defensively or anything- Right that had to do with defense. Right. And without any level of success other than just having him sit down next to me for a little bit, and, uh, or a lotta bit. And, you know, eventually, he actually became, as a senior, he, he set the school record for steals. He's the best def- he's one of the best defensive players in the history of our program. Yeah. And I'm not sure through, you know, uh, when I was recruiting him, I was like,"I think this guy's just gonna be a knockdown shooter. I'm gonna have to get him to play a little bit more defense." I had no idea that he was gonna transform into the best defensive player arguably- Yeah in the history of our program, you know? And it's just how guys can adjust and, and change, it's... Y- you never n- you, you never quite know, you know? It's not an exact science. Trying to do the best we can, like, just in terms of the evaluation and figuring, figuring things out. Yeah. It's, you know, there's, there's 32 NFL football programs right now trying to figure all that out for next weekend with the draft, you know? It's just- Sure you know, I, I, I had a kid just pop to my head, same way. Just the worst, you know, averaged 22 points per game in high school. Yeah. I got him, he was the worst defensive player I have ever coached. I mean, his freshman year, his feet were a mess. He was... You could, you could jab one way, and he'd do a complete 360. You know, it was like a dog chasing, chasing a light, he was so bad. By the time he was a junior, he was Defensive Player of the Year. Yeah. Once he figured it out and, and learned how to, you know, really focus on his principles. So it's fun. Um, when you're starting that recruiting journey every year- Yeah and you're starting to figure out what your team looks like and what you want it to look like, and where do you have to f- fill in places, where does your mind go? Are you... I heard, you know, Danny Hurley and Geno Auriemma talking the other day. You probably saw that interview too, where they said,"We're just recruiting the best offensive players we can, we can find now." I found that really interesting. You know, we'll teach them everything else. We need guys that can score. Where does your mind go when you know you're gonna graduate five or six seniors? What are, where are you at? Where does that start? Are you trying to replace those kids? Are you trying to replace size? Are you trying to replace positions? Where, where do you begin? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think that we're just Well, I, I don't, I don't think it's necessarily trying to... Maybe I'll, I'll rule this out by process of elimination. It's not trying to replace what we have, you know,'cause everybody's, everybody's game is gonna be a little bit different. And I, I think that it is, and I touched on this earlier, it's, it's if, if somebody has a skill set where they are exceptional in a particular area, and this could just be that they're a world-class athlete or they're, they're a, a great passer or they're just a knockdown shooter, and they're also able, in my opinion, to do, to do something else at an above average level, then it's a guy that we're, we're, we're gonna show some, some, some interest to. Yeah. And, um, you know, maybe they're gonna also just be... A- again, we have recruited plenty of well-rounded players as well, but I, I think that, that starting s- starting there is gonna be, um, im- important for us because we can adjust kind of our, our identity. Yeah, sure, some concepts are gonna stay the same, and there are gonna be some non-negotiables within our program. But if we can assemble a collection of guys in a, in a class of five or six or however many we're looking to bring in, um, then we're gonna be able to piece together guys that are gonna be able to complement each other on the court, you know, and combine those with some of the existing, existing players that we have. And, um, I guess that's, that's how I look at it. I mean, I think maybe with the size, with somebody, somebody that has size, it's a little bit differently. Yeah, we might just need somebody with size in a particular class. But, uh, for the rest of the positions, I think that, that that's kind of how we approach it. Yeah. It's, it almost has to be... It almost has to be somewhat positionless. Y- you know you need a point guard, you know you need- Yeah shooters. Yeah. You'd love to have a lot more size, you know- Yeah more length. But what you do, you need talent. You need guys that can play the game at a, at a high pace and a high level, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and we also, we also, like, can overlook certain things that maybe other schools aren't able to overlook, and that, whether that's, like, m- the physical strength, that it might take somebody two years to really be ready. Well, with the pace that we're playing at, yeah, we want you to get stronger and, and, and we're gonna have a program for that, but it's not, like, a necessity to be able to step in and play right away. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's a great, it's a great road for a kid that maybe has... is a one-trick pony or maybe doesn't even have that trick yet, but is 6'7" and has real long arms or great shot blocker or just, you know, great in the passing lanes and great anticipation skills. Maybe even a football player that plays free safety, hasn't played a lot of basketball, can make a world of difference in your program, right? Yeah. They've, they've got that mindset. It's true. We had a, we had a guy come out wh- this was a team that won... I think we went 16 and 9. He, he joined just for his senior year after playing football. He was a defensive back on the football team. And he played one of the wing positions in our press. And I'll tell you what, they never inbounded the basketball to his side of the floor. It's incredible. He just locked down half the side of the fl- No offensively. He- Huge. I, I'm not even kidding. This was like- Yeah maybe five or six years ago. He just came out, and like I wasn't gonna play him'cause I thought we had these other guys. And then when we were doing some drills, I was like,"Jesus, they can never get the ball in on his side of the floor." Like, this seems, like, valuable in our press if just- Yeah half the floor is, is, is, is not available for the other team to pass it to. It's a multiplier. It's a guy that does one thing really well, and makes life easier on everybody else. So it's, it's, it's, it's great. Um, let's, let me throw some hypotheticals at you, just see how you handle these from a... And, and what you want for your program. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm, I'm a 16-year-old junior. I just finished my... I'm finishing up my junior year. I really wanna play college basketball. Heard about Grinnell. How do I get a hold of you? Would... How do you want me to reach out to you to express my interest? What does that look like? Yeah. Yeah, so, um, there are a few ways that, that, that you could do it. You could, you know... I mean, if you're researching Grinnell and you're looking at our website, you're gonna see my email on there, and you're gonna be able to send me, my assistant coach DJ an email. Uh, you're gonna be able to fill out a recruiting questionnaire. Um, and then you're probably gonna hear from us, you know? And, and i- if in your email you're expressing interest in Grinnell and making it specific to Grinnell, that is always very, very helpful, rather than, uh, a, a generic whatever that's being sent to so many coaches. And if you're... And, and it could be specific, and it's showing that you've taken time to think about Grinnell, that this could actually be the right place for you. And, um, you know, it doesn't have to be like a, a recap of our season or all the details, but just something specific that, that, that shows your, your interest level. So much. Is that a fair... Is that fair for me to say? God, it's, it's right on. It's exactly what parents need to hear. It's exactly what recruits need to hear. Yeah. Uh, because, uh, too many kids are sending a generic email that somebody created for them or they created, and they're sending the same thing to 100 coaches instead of going,"All right, do I like this place? Do I wanna live in the middle of Iowa?" Yeah. You know, do I want that size of school? Do I want 14, 15 kids in a classroom, or do I want 200 kids in a lecture hall? You know, where, where's my learning style? So when I'm teaching kids about recruitment, what you just said is right on, and everybody needs to understand that because just like a family doesn't want a generic email from you with,"Hey, we've got a camp that costs$300, would you come to it?" That you sent to 1,000 kids. They want the email that says,"Hey, I just saw you on film, and I love the way you shoot the ball. You have a great motor. We think you're a great fit for us." Those three sentences are what every kid wants to hear from you. You know, they don't care- Right about Grinnell right away. They care that you saw them and you saw that they can play, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's okay for, you know, if you don't know exactly the type of school that you want, whether it's size or location, uh, especially when you're a freshman or sophomore, and even junior, like that's- Yeah that's... it's okay to not know that stuff. But I, I think that, you know, at least for me, that's gonna be one of the first questions that I'm gonna ask on the phone is,"Hey, you know, what, what are you looking for? What types of schools are you interested in?" And, um, that helps me get a sense of is Grinnell gonna be the right fit? Because as, as important as it is for the, the prospective recruit to find the right fit for them, it's important for us to be able to find somebody that's the right fit for Grinnell, and the right fit for our program, and the right fit for our team. Yeah. You've... You're one of the few Division III schools in the country, Division III basketball programs, I'll be specific, that have a reputation that precedes you. You know, before you walk in the door, before you get on the phone with Coach Arsenault, you're one of the few Division III programs that have ever played a game on ESPN. You, you, you're still getting, you're still getting publicity from a young man that scored 100 points in a game. There's Gameball. Right? How much of that is a positive when you're recruiting, and how much of that can be a negative where there's kids that think they can come in and just sling it, and they're... and they don't have to play a lot of defense, or they don't have to work real hard, or you're- Yeah you're not... You're one of those coaches that goes, golf claps all the time, and doesn't get in their rear end and yell at them. Uh, how much of that works in your favor, and how much of that works against you? Yeah. Yeah, no, uh, it definitely goes both ways, I can say that. Yeah. Um, it works in our favor because, uh, m- maybe quite a few people have heard of Grinnell, whether it's for the academic reputation or because it's that Jack Taylor scored 138 points in a game. Yeah. And, um, so that is, that is, is certainly, certainly helpful. And, um, you know, it also gives us an identity. M- m- I think players at least have a general concept of the way that we're going to play, even if, uh, they might miscalculate what their specific role is. And as you mentioned, like the, the miscalculation i- would, would be that, y- you know, Jack Taylor was an exceptional scorer. And while we have had a lot of different players lead the country in scoring, um, that is... it's, it's, it's hard and, and we have a lot of guys, everybody wants to shoot the basketball. I think sometimes it's actually harder to find guys that a- are willing to wanna play a role. And, um, you know, I, I have had guys that thought that maybe it would just- completely change our substitution pattern and that they would be playing 38 minutes, you know, in a, in a game. And so- Right I, I, I think that there's, th- there's... I- it can be tough on, on that front. And I, I don't mean this, like, to, to, to, to talk poorly about a- any, any recruit, um, you know, because I do like that they would have confidence in themselves, that in their ability, in their physical conditioning that they're gonna be able to play. And I, you know, and I will be the first to say, like, for an impact player,"Listen, I'm gonna play you as many minutes as, as you can play that is still helping the team," you know? And if there's no drop-off in your conditioning and you are actually able to play 30 minutes a night, then why would I be the- wanna be the one to, to slow you down from being able to do that? But, like, we need to check some more boxes before we get to that point. And so- Exactly um, yeah, it, it, it can be, it can be challenging in, in some cases to explain both the reality while still shedding a positive light on, on, on, on what would, what would take place at Grinnell. Well, I think the key to what you talked about earlier was the gym's open. Yeah. And, and there's, there's, there's balls in there, you know? And if you wanna play more and you wanna be a big part of our program, uh, there it is, right? Yeah. How hard do you wanna work, you know? If, if, if you're on the gun once a week and you're shooting 28% behind the three-point line, you're probably not the two guard in those top two rotations. Y- you're struggling to get into that third group. And but if you're on that gun seven days a week and you're getting your 2, 300 shots up, and all of a sudden you're shooting 35, 38, 40% behind the arc, it's hard to take you off the floor, right? Totally. Yeah. Totally. A- a- and I think that's, what you're saying, is the right message for all recruits, don't matter what sport you have. You want, you want college coaches to take you seriously? Prove to them that they can't take you off the floor. Yeah. Ma- make, make them crazy. Well, and e- even- Make them crazy y- you know, the, just, just the, the level of skill and athleticism compared to when I played at Grinnell at the Division III level is just in a, it's just in a different category. And guys are so, so talented now that the line between multiple levels is, is becoming increasingly blurred, especially with the transfer portal and more guys moving up and, you know. And, and, and especially for high school kids, it's becoming more, more blurred, that there are a lot... Division III basketball is so high quality at this point in time. Unbelievably good. You know? And, and, and I think that, uh, that has continued to, to change. I see a number of guys going from Division III making the leap straight up to Division I. Yeah. You know? I think yesterday I actually saw, saw a couple guys that were All-American- Saw it too Division III players that, that, you know, are, are, are at the D1 level. And, and, um- You know, so I, I, I do think that, like, you gotta be really good to play at any level in college, and you gotta be, be look- doing the right things in terms of how you're reaching out, what you're doing in the classroom, um, how you're working on your game, your mindset, everything. Give a piece of advice, Coach, to the parents that have that teenage boy or girl that are going through this journey. What, what piece of advice would you give them? Yeah. Um, you know, I think that, that it's gonna, it, it's gonna help with the process if you're able to figure out what schools make the most sense, and then you're, you're, you're realistic and you're, you're, you're willing to accept kind of feedback on, on those, on, on the journey, you know? And, and having realistic expectations, uh, figuring out what types of schools make the most sense. This could be from, again, from any number of factors, whether it's location, or the academics, or the majors that a particular school has, you know, or what the, what the weather's gonna be like. Like, the, you know, there's, there's so many different things that can factor into a decision, or how much playing time, or is it, is it, is it better to be a part of a winning program and not playing, or go someplace where you're able to play right away? Like, think, I think kinda just, just, just figuring out what is gonna be the most important to, you know, your happiness in a way, right? Yeah. Like,'cause I just like to see, I just see, like to see these, these, these, uh, young guys make, make good decisions, uh, and, and go to a place where they feel happy about their decision. Yeah. Yeah, it's great advice. Uh, piece of advice for high school coaches that are developing their guys and w- wanna have a, a stake in helping kids get to that next level. What would you say to them? Um, I mean, I mean, I think that high school coaches can be, can be really instrumental in helping, uh, you know, their players get, get looks from colleges and, and reaching out, and I, I talk very frequently with the, the high school coaches of, of the, the players that we're recruiting. And they're, they're just able to provide kind of that professional type of, of, of, of, of aspect, that if I'm talking to, about a high school coach, I know that they're gonna be able to tell me,"Hey, you know, what type of, of, of person is, i- is this that we're recruiting?" You know? And so I think that, like, their involvement in the process in helping their players get noticed, especially, especially the ones that they feel like are college basketball players can be, can be huge. How important is it for you to have a high school coach when you talk to them where they can give you critical feedback on their player about,"Hey, they're really good at this. This is what we're working on with them. It's not a strength yet." When you hear that instead of praise, praise, praise, does that help you? Definitely helps, you know, because I, eventually we're gonna- A- as coaches, we're eventually probably going to, going to, going to see if they do come to our institution, we're gonna, we're gonna see it firsthand, um, if there is an area that they need to work on or if there is something g- going on, or if there's an area where they're exceptional at it and it wasn't kind of, kind of noted. And so I think that, that just giving that critical feedback of what... Especially because high school coaches are gonna have a lot, in most cases, are gonna have some level of experience or a lot of experience in seeing how past players have performed at the college level, you know? And so they're gonna have this baseline of like,"Oh, we had this guy that, you know, it wasn't the exact same player, but he kind of did something similar that went on to do this." And so they're just gonna know, uh... have a good sense of what, what might be able to translate, especially because they're seeing somebody in practice every single day. That's right. And, and, and you, again, you s- you said it, y- co- high school coaches can speak the language, you know, that you... they can get in the weeds with you, but the character is, is important. Understanding the... where, where growth needs to happen is important, so I love hearing that. I t- I, I talk about this all the time, and when I speak at high schools I'll, I'll... I always say, for years, I... when I would call a high school coach about a kid, the last question I always asked was,"Coach, tell me about, tell me about David's parents." And if there was more than about a three to five-second pause, I would go,"Coach, you've said enough. That's all I need to know. We, we won't be recruiting David, but thank you for your time. If you have ever a kid you want us to look at." Worry you? And i- it was, uh, half gesture, you know, half jesting about that. Mm-hmm. When you talk to high school coaches about parents, are there things that you wanna hear? Are there things that worry you, that are red flags? Um, you know, I think a lot of times, like, high school coaches will, will, will, will talk about that even if, even if I don't ask, just like the, the, you know, how, how... the support level that they're getting. And I think that this ties also, um, to the, to the, to the, to the player as well, you know? Great kid, great family, and- Yeah you know, something, something of that nature. Um, yeah, I, I know that it can be- Uh, especially for us, like, i- it's why if we're gonna, uh, you know, extend a spot to anybody, um, we're gonna encourage... They, they're gonna have to come and visit campus and hang out with the guys on the team, because the team chemistry for me is so important. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna use the feedback from the guys on my team when factoring in whether or not we're gonna, we wanna, we wanna add somebody to the mix, and their feedback is going to carry more weight than their highlight tape, for sure. Because, um, for us, it's just so important to, to create that, that, that culture within our program where, you know, if we don't, if we don't have positive team chemistry, these guys aren't gonna be able to achieve at the level that they're capable of in the classroom, never mind on the court, you know? And, and we just... So, so for us, it's like, how are they interacting when they come on a visit? How are they approaching, you know, every little thing that they're doing? We know we're recruiting them, um, you know, and, a- and, and... Or we're recruiting them, they're recruiting us, and the, and the street is going both ways, I guess. Coach, um, I can't tell you enough how impressed I am with you. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm so happy for you, the success that you've had, and I know you've got, I hope, 30 more years of, of it coming. And, um, we need more guys like you that are innovators and are great teachers, great leaders and mentors. And I just, I just have so much appreciation for you. And if you don't mind, I, I'm excited to call you a friend. And if I can ever do anything for you and your program, you've got a big fan in me. What an honor. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for all you're doing for, you know, not only prospective students, uh, and their families, um, in, in training, but for the game of basketball as well. So thank y- thank you so much for giving me the opportunity, and it's always great to talk to somebody who's played in Old Darby Gymnasium. Oh, what a, what, what great memories, man. What, what... I- it's, uh... Y- you'd think after a certain point those, those things would be, uh, so memorable, but I, I'm not a very nostalgic person. But those, those days were so great, and I know they are for you, too. You were a great player. So thanks for doing this. We'll be cheering for Grinnell and Grinnell basketball. I'm excited to see all you'll do as the years happen. Thanks, Coach. And that's a wrap for part two of my conversation with David Arseneau Jr., head men's basketball coach at Grinnell College. He's fantastic. What stands out in this conversation is how clear he is about fit. Not every player is built for that environment, And he's not trying to convince everyone otherwise. He understands exactly who thrives in his program, how they need to think, how they need to play, and how they need to approach their college experience. If you're navigating that recruiting process, head over to coachmattrogers.com. You'll find resources, books, strategy sessions, and the weekly newsletter designed to help you think through your options and take ownership of your recruiting journey. Make sure you subscribe to that weekly newsletter as well. Every week, I share insights, conversations, and practical perspective for coaches, athletes, and parents. And if you enjoyed this episode, we encourage you to please make sure to favorite, follow, and subscribe so you never miss a conversation until next time. Stay focused on what you can control. Stay humble, and keep chasing significance